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Forums - Gaming - Theft is a very forced metaphor for software piracy

Onyxmeth on 14 August 2009
Slimebeast said:


Obviously it's implied that there are some morals that are practically universal. Theft is one of them. Murder is another. You don't have to believe they are absolute morals (but even some atheists believe in absolute morals - side note) - it's just not practical to debate them, because for example condemnation of theft is universal.

So if I can demonstrate that piracy is in essence the same as theft of a service - again, just like going to the zoo, bus etc without paying, and just like tax evasion - then I've shown it's immoral by universal standards.

So then demonstrate that piracy is a theft of service.



Tag: Became a freaking mod and a complete douche, coincidentally, at the same time.



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Slimebeast on 14 August 2009
Katilian said:
Slimebeast said:

Obviously it's implied that there are some morals that are practically universal. Theft is one of them. Murder is another. You don't have to believe they are absolute morals (but even some atheists believe in absolute morals - side note) - it's just not practical to debate them, because for example condemnation of theft is universal.

So if I can demonstrate that piracy is in essence the same as theft of a service - again, just like going to the zoo, bus etc without paying, and just like tax evasion - then I've shown it's immoral by universal standards.

Lets take this to the extreme. If tomorrow everyone on earth decided that murder was 100% ok, explain to me how murder is still immoral? Who is going to say it is wrong? What implies that murder is inherently wrong?

Edit: Also, even if piracy = theft of service, why can't piracy be moral when other forms of theft of service are immoral? Killing someone for fun and killing someone in self defence are both forms of murder, yet there are people that consider murdering for self defence to be ok.


I'd still say that murder is wrong (from the 'outside observer' perspective). I guess this is the example which makes you believe in absolute morals, because most people would still instinctively reply that murder is wrong even if 100% of people thought it is right - the 100% of people in favor of murder just don't know better.

This is much like morals in politics work. Politicians believe they have higher standards and don't let the majority of the people simply decide what to do. Every opinion is not equally valid, whatever you hear someone claim in their hypcrisy.

But, how are you basing your arguments btw? You aren't suggesting that moral issues are only up to a majority vote, do you? Because all other arguments would then be pointless.



Slimebeast on 14 August 2009
Onyxmeth said:
Slimebeast said:
 


Obviously it's implied that there are some morals that are practically universal. Theft is one of them. Murder is another. You don't have to believe they are absolute morals (but even some atheists believe in absolute morals - side note) - it's just not practical to debate them, because for example condemnation of theft is universal.

So if I can demonstrate that piracy is in essence the same as theft of a service - again, just like going to the zoo, bus etc without paying, and just like tax evasion - then I've shown it's immoral by universal standards.

So then demonstrate that piracy is a theft of service.


Let's say I held a performance by playing music in a cave outside a middle sized town - the performance is the service. I advertise and set a price on the tickets and put a helper at the entrance to collect fees. But everyone found a little hallway in the back that they sneaked in through without paying.

Since it's a cave, maybe the people wouldn't even be charged for thievery (or technically, intrusion) by the law, but morally they all came in and stole my service and I lost a lot of money, therefore they are thiefs (because the conditions for the service was 'pay and I'll play', or else no concert will be performed).



Onyxmeth on 14 August 2009
Slimebeast said:
Onyxmeth said:
Slimebeast said:
 


Obviously it's implied that there are some morals that are practically universal. Theft is one of them. Murder is another. You don't have to believe they are absolute morals (but even some atheists believe in absolute morals - side note) - it's just not practical to debate them, because for example condemnation of theft is universal.

So if I can demonstrate that piracy is in essence the same as theft of a service - again, just like going to the zoo, bus etc without paying, and just like tax evasion - then I've shown it's immoral by universal standards.

So then demonstrate that piracy is a theft of service.


Let's say I held a performance by playing music in a cave outside a middle sized town - the performance is the service. I advertise and set a price on the tickets and put a helper at the entrance to collect fees. But everyone found a little hallway in the back that they sneaked in through without paying.

Since it's a cave, maybe the people wouldn't even be charged for thievery (or technically, intrusion) by the law, but morally they all came in and stole my service and I lost a lot of money, therefore they are thiefs (because the conditions for the service was 'pay and I'll play', or else no concert will be performed).

Ok cool. You've explained to me how a musical performance inside a cave is a service, and coming into the cave's side entrance without paying is theft of service. Unfortunately, that's not piracy. So again, demonstrate that piracy is a theft of service.

To further seperate your example from piracy, game development does not work with the customer paying for the development and then the game gets made. What you're describing is the equivalent of the publisher not paying the developer during the development of the game. That is a theft of service...I think.



Tag: Became a freaking mod and a complete douche, coincidentally, at the same time.



Slimebeast on 14 August 2009
Onyxmeth said:
Slimebeast said:
Onyxmeth said:
Slimebeast said:
 


Obviously it's implied that there are some morals that are practically universal. Theft is one of them. Murder is another. You don't have to believe they are absolute morals (but even some atheists believe in absolute morals - side note) - it's just not practical to debate them, because for example condemnation of theft is universal.

So if I can demonstrate that piracy is in essence the same as theft of a service - again, just like going to the zoo, bus etc without paying, and just like tax evasion - then I've shown it's immoral by universal standards.

So then demonstrate that piracy is a theft of service.


Let's say I held a performance by playing music in a cave outside a middle sized town - the performance is the service. I advertise and set a price on the tickets and put a helper at the entrance to collect fees. But everyone found a little hallway in the back that they sneaked in through without paying.

Since it's a cave, maybe the people wouldn't even be charged for thievery (or technically, intrusion) by the law, but morally they all came in and stole my service and I lost a lot of money, therefore they are thiefs (because the conditions for the service was 'pay and I'll play', or else no concert will be performed).

Ok cool. You've explained to me how a musical performance inside a cave is a service, and coming into the cave's side entrance without paying is theft of service. Unfortunately, that's not piracy. So again, demonstrate that piracy is a theft of service.

To further seperate your example from piracy, game development does not work with the customer paying for the development and then the game gets made. What you're describing is the equivalent of the publisher not paying the developer during the development of the game. That is a theft of service...I think.

I'm curious though, is the cave example theft of service in your opinion?



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Onyxmeth on 14 August 2009
Slimebeast said:

I'm curious though, is the cave example theft of service in your opinion?

This seems more like trespassing to me. The more examples I put into this situation, including a party you have to pay for at someone's house, a dinner function you didn't pay for, all seem to fall under walking onto property without an invitation (a paid ticket being the invitation in your case).



Tag: Became a freaking mod and a complete douche, coincidentally, at the same time.



.jayderyu on 14 August 2009

wow, seems like some peoples understanding of law is really loose and heavily influenced by PR.



Squilliam: On Vgcharts its a commonly accepted practice to twist the bounds of plausibility in order to support your argument or agenda so I think its pretty cool that this gives me the precedent to say whatever I damn well please.

Slimebeast on 14 August 2009
.jayderyu said:
wow, seems like some peoples understanding of law is really loose and heavily influenced by PR.


What PR? The only PR I hear and read is that the movie, game and music indrustry is greedy and evil.



Onyxmeth on 14 August 2009
Slimebeast said:
.jayderyu said:
wow, seems like some peoples understanding of law is really loose and heavily influenced by PR.


What PR? The only PR I hear and read is that the movie, game and music indrustry is greedy and evil.

I think he's talking about the "You wouldn't steal a car. Piracy is stealing. Stealing is Illegal." ads that play before some DVDs that the RIAA is behind.



Tag: Became a freaking mod and a complete douche, coincidentally, at the same time.



noname2200 on 14 August 2009

I like how we have these long discussions about piracy in every thread except for the best one made on the topic.