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silicon on 16 June 2009
Citan said:
silicon said:
Citan said:
silicon said:

JRPGs are soaps


WRPGs are hit tv shows and movies



Robots, Science Fiction, 12-year old girls in swimsuits, Drama, action, comedy, sex, philosophy, love, hate, friendship and intertekstual references to Friedrich Nietzsche`s subjects, Carl Gustav Jung`s Analytical psychology, The Bibel, Jewish religion, German history and novels, Anime.

 

Is that what you call soap?

And I thought wrpg`s had freedom. When you watch a movie, you don`t have much freedom. Instead while you watch soaps you have the freedom to skip 10-15 episodes and still be able to catch up to the story.

So your statement fails in  my eyes.

 

Yeah, JRPGs are like soaps...

And WRPGs are like hit tv shows and movies.

 

Even without freedom WRPGs are still better then JRPGs... so I dunno what your point is...

I think you live in a small closed world.

 

"Get some, get some" - Crazy door gunner from Full Metal Jacket

 

Small closed world like JRPGs?

 



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Bitmap Frogs on 16 June 2009
Citan said:

Read this before you open your mouth on this thread ever again:

http://www.hirokiazuma.com/en/texts/superflat_en1.html

 

Not for bitmap to read:

What`s so funny with this guy is that he says that Jrpg`s are based on wrpg`s.

And?

Can`t something be better when it`s based on something?

Isn`t everything based on something?

 

You get so pissy about it lol.

The problem it's not that "they are based on it".

The problem is that most jrpg's today are still rehashing Ultima III. Including the two top jrpg franchises. 

By the way, why are you linking a paper legitimizing the otaku subculture? Oh wait, you consider yourself one. Should have known...





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

StanGable on 16 June 2009

Citan,

If you're not willing to play Mass Effect and understand why it moved the RPG forward instead of stalling it like JRPGs then you have no room to say that Xenosaga is better. Also, I love JRPGs, but I admit that WRPGs have done much for the genre than JRPGs. JRPGs do have the potential to create great storylines, but that storyline will never change and to make a game that never changes is a lot easier than creating a game that will be affected by the way the gamer plays it.

Also, and to pretty much shut down your whole

obots, Science Fiction, 12-year old girls in swimsuits, Drama, action, comedy, sex, philosophy, love, hate, friendship and intertekstual references to Friedrich Nietzsche`s subjects, Carl Gustav Jung`s Analytical psychology, The Bibel, Jewish religion, German history and novels, Anime.


Number 1 - You keep mentioning all of these but you have not given a clear example of how t hey use that. I could basically copy paste this and say that ME uses them all, so by your definition Mass Effect is better.

Number 2 - Mass Effect has been well received, in fact, critics have always put it amongs best in RPGs where as Xenosaga has not been received the same way

Mass Effect
The Xbox 360 version of Mass Effect has received wide critical acclaim. On the review aggregator Game Rankings, the game had an average score of 91% based on 75 reviews.[62] On Metacritic, the game had an average score of 91 out of 100, based on 71 reviews — indicating "universal acclaim.


Mass Effect's showing at E3 2006 was well received and resulted in the game winning several awards during the expo, including the Game Critics Awards' Best Role-Playing Game.[79] One of the most recent and arguably more significant awards the game has been awarded the #1 spot on IGN's list of "The Top 25 Xbox 360 games. [80]
The game earned the following post-release awards:
Spike TV Awards
[81]
Awarded: Best RPG
GameTrailers Awards[82]
Awarded: Best RPG, Best New Game Franchise.
TeamXbox Awards[83]
Reader's Choice Awards: Best RPG, Best Story.
Awarded: Game of the Year, Best RPG, Best Story.
GameSpot Best of 2007 Awards[84]
Awarded: Best Voice Acting, Best Original Music.
IGN Best of 2007 Awards[85]
Awarded: Best RPG, Best Original Score, Best Story.
X-Play Best of 2007 Awards
Awarded: Best RPG.
The New York Times[86]
Awarded: Game Of The Year
A complete list of awards can be found at the game's official website


This is what critics have said about Xenosaga Episode I, II & III
Criticism

GamingAge believed that the character designs and animation styles in Xenosaga were not up to par with expectations, although Episode II offers a different art style.[1] GamePro criticized the complexity of the battle system mechanics, such as A. G. W. S. battles and tech points.[2] One critic from GameSpy disliked the length of Xenosaga's cutscenes, claiming that it slowed the start of the game.[3] Episode I was given GameSpot's "dubious honour" award for the "Most pretentious game of 2003". GameSpot did however praise the game in their review, scoring it 8.1 out of 10. [4]


Although the graphics were well received by some players, Episode II received criticism for most of its elements. One of the biggest complaints came from the story, which was considered to be fast-paced when compared to Episode I. This change in the method of plot development may have been an attempt by Namco to broaden the series' audience, although some fans argued that this reform disrupted flow between Episode I and Episode II. Many also complained that the game is shorter than Episode I,[1]itself criticized for being too brief compared to Xenogears. Fans commonly cite in their complaints a section at the start of Disc Two in which several critical plot developments are simplified into a series of vignettes narrated by Shion. Other common complaints include the modified skill system and the removal of shopping/money system. The new voice actors for Shion, MOMO and KOS-MOS were considered a downgrade by some. [2] Musically, famed videogame composer Yasunori Mitsuda did not return to score the music of Episode II, despite getting critical acclaim for his musical work on Episode I, disappointing fans of his work. [2]
Episode II has also come under serious fire because of distinct changes with the battle system. In Episode II, action points were replaced with a similar stock system that keeps track of how many extra attacks a character can tack on their normal amount, all characters were placed on the same Ether and Skill tree, the Boost bar now applies to the entire party rather than to individual characters, and enemies must be defeated by weakening their "zones" via chains of attack combinations. In many cases, players cited the fact you spent more time healing from various enemy skills and building stock than actually attacking the enemies. Although some others argued that the concept increased strategy required to win battles, others found that it was both unnecessarily slow and complicated. [3] At the same time, the new skill tree was considered by some to have been vastly "dumbed down" from the skill system in the first game. [4] Many of the skills are left unexplained as well, often leaving many players confused about their use.
The art style was also drastically altered from the first game, going from an anime style to a more "Westernized" art style with regard to the character designs. Many fans found that this, along with the change in voice actors of several key characters, disrupted the fact that this series was supposed to be one narrative and caused a disconnection from the characters. [5]
Episode II was a finalist for GameSpot's 2005 Most Long-Winded Game Title. [1] It lost to Peter Jackson's King Kong: The Official Game of the Movie. In addition, Game Informer called Episode II "a dropped ball of Devil May Cry 2 proportions," citing similar critical and fan disappointment expressed with the aforementioned game. [2]


Critical Response

Episode III received generally good reviews, and the majority of media and fan outlets felt that the game improved upon Episode II, which many considered a disappointing sequel to the first installment. Specifically, many felt that the new battle system, although typical RPG fare, was an improvement over the complicated "zone break" system used in Episode II, and that the voice acting was much improved with the return of several popular voice actors which were inexplicably recast for Episode II (notably Lia Sargent as Shion and Bridget Hoffman as KOS-MOS).


Finally, I will once more prove you that Mass Effect has some of "Science Fiction, 12-year old girls in swimsuits, Drama, action, comedy, sex, philosophy, love, hate, friendship and intertekstual references to Friedrich Nietzsche`s subjects, Carl Gustav Jung`s Analytical psychology, The Bibel, Jewish religion, German history and novels" to destroy your argument

Sex scene coverage on the internet
Controversy over the sexual content of Mass Effect occurred when evangelical blogger Kevin McCullough wrote an article titled, “The ‘Sex-Box’ Race for President”.[88] McCullough employed strong, false statements such as “Mass Effect can be customized to sodomize whatever, whomever, however, the game player wishes,” and “with its ‘over the net’ capabilities virtual orgasmic rape is just the push of a button away.” The game itself does not feature rape, as each romantic sub-plot involves consent on the part of the player and the NPC, and cannot be done with "whomever" the player wishes, only two NPCs for each PC gender are considered romantic interests, and furthermore the game lacks a multiplayer component of any sort.
McCullough’s article was met with an outburst from the gaming community. McCullough issued an apology by saying, “I DO apologize to the gaming universe!” He then goes on to say, “I still do concur with my original position that the objectionable content in Mass Effect is still offensive”.[89] McCullough’s handling of the situation was parodied by popular gaming webcomic Penny Arcade[90] and online comedy site LoadingReadyRun.[91] The controversy eventually resulted in his article being taken down by Townhall.com


Themes
Mass Effect's story primarily falls within the space opera genre[14] and explores themes such as space colonization, intolerance, vigilantism, and artificial intelligence. The story, with its man-vs.-machine elements, has drawn comparisons to both Fred Saberhagen's Berserker novels and Battlestar Galactica,[15] as well as to Frederick Pohl's Gateway novels. [16] According to Casey Hudson, the project director at BioWare, Aliens, Blade Runner, Star Wars, and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan all served as influences for the game


Now I will not continue quoting stuff, if you want to be enlightened go play the game yourself.

Here are all my sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenosaga_Episode_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenosaga_Episode_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenosaga_3



What are you looking at, nerd?
Bitmap Frogs on 16 June 2009

Ah lol the paper is an aesthetic lecture propping up a present art-movement.

Oh wow lol.

Some guy made up a bunch of stuff to justify a museum exhibition and sell on the artistic relevance of the featured creator... ah, modern art.

In the world of modern art, what you linked is what they call marketing.





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

pearljammer on 16 June 2009
Bitmap Frogs said:

So basically WRPGs are soulles and artless because they lack purple hair, emo teens and lolis. Gotcha.

Now seriously: jrpg storytelling is very, very basic - typical anyme-ish. It's just the way they dress it with the whole "mysterious-trascendent-philosophical-religious-magical" shebang that makes people susceptible to such deception go "ooooh". It's the anime/jrpg equivalent of technobabble. From a narrative point of view, there's zero difference between the tirades about human nature and the trascendent so common in anime and JRPGs and Data blabbering about the antimatter gravity ripple interaction pressuring the ionospheric quantum barrier.

Then there's a bunch of deranged claims you make like tackling adult issues, changing the way videogames are orchestated, etc etc. Bunch of drivel. Why? One word: Richard Garriot's Ultima. Ever heard of it? It's the blueprint used by japanese developers to make their games.

Does this look familiar to you?

 

That's Ultima III field view. 

What about this?

 

That's Ultima III combat screen.

Ultima III is a 1983 game, that's 3 years before Dragon Quest 1 and four years before Final Fantasy 1. Ultima games tackled adult issues, amongst those allowing the player to steal and murder allowing a quicker yet inmoral path to richess.

The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond.

Although I completely disagree with the OP, you make some wild claims here as well.

As I had mentioned before, yes, of course there are those cliched purple haired, emo teen filled JRPGs with dreadful, convoluted dialogue. It's unfortunate that the entire genre gets generalised because of all the teens and tweens plastering them in their sigs as well as in their avatars.

However, there are plenty of JRPGs that skillfully tell a story. Take FFIV for example, storytelling to which every JRPG should aspire to. If youère looking for more recent examples, there is Tales of Vesperia. While there are a few cliches, it is overall done quite well. Or perhaps even Disgaea, which is basically a stroke of genious with its satirical storytelling, recognizing the often cliche and convoluted plots in many JRPGs. Fire Emblem, Lost Odyssey, FFXII, Persona and Valkyria Chronicles are all also examples of good-great storytelling.

"The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond."

That iss simply not true. Take a look at the RPGs that have come out this generation alone. Only two (BD and LO), I think, can fit that description. The rest have evolved in some form or another, whether they be action-based, or SRPGs, etc. Even within those sub-genres, they have evolved (e.g. Valkyria Chronicles, Parasite Eve, FFXII...)



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Citan on 16 June 2009
Bitmap Frogs said:
Citan said:

Read this before you open your mouth on this thread ever again:

http://www.hirokiazuma.com/en/texts/superflat_en1.html

 

Not for bitmap to read:

What`s so funny with this guy is that he says that Jrpg`s are based on wrpg`s.

And?

Can`t something be better when it`s based on something?

Isn`t everything based on something?

 

You get so pissy about it lol.

The problem it's not that "they are based on it".

The problem is that most jrpg's today are still rehashing Ultima III. Including the two top jrpg franchises.

By the way, why are you linking a paper legitimizing the otaku subculture? Oh wait, you consider yourself one. Should have known...

I`m not pissed, but you haven`t understood what I`m talking about.

Why is it a problem?

That paper explains the complex world Japanese culture. Hence a more complex story-line in Jrpg`s. Do you understand? Or do we need to go deeper?

Try reading the whole paper and not just the two first sentences and you there`s more than legitimization.

Heh. No I`m no otaku. Never was, never will be.



Citan on 16 June 2009
Bitmap Frogs said:

Ah lol the paper is an aesthetic lecture propping up a present art-movement.

Oh wow lol.

Some guy made up a bunch of stuff to justify a museum exhibition and sell on the artistic relevance of the featured creator... ah, modern art.

In the world of modern art, what you linked is what they call marketing.


When you understand what "superflatness" means I`lll continue to discuss with you.

Bitmap Frogs on 16 June 2009
pearljammer said:
Bitmap Frogs said:

So basically WRPGs are soulles and artless because they lack purple hair, emo teens and lolis. Gotcha.

Now seriously: jrpg storytelling is very, very basic - typical anyme-ish. It's just the way they dress it with the whole "mysterious-trascendent-philosophical-religious-magical" shebang that makes people susceptible to such deception go "ooooh". It's the anime/jrpg equivalent of technobabble. From a narrative point of view, there's zero difference between the tirades about human nature and the trascendent so common in anime and JRPGs and Data blabbering about the antimatter gravity ripple interaction pressuring the ionospheric quantum barrier.

Then there's a bunch of deranged claims you make like tackling adult issues, changing the way videogames are orchestated, etc etc. Bunch of drivel. Why? One word: Richard Garriot's Ultima. Ever heard of it? It's the blueprint used by japanese developers to make their games.

Does this look familiar to you?

 

That's Ultima III field view. 

What about this?

 

That's Ultima III combat screen.

Ultima III is a 1983 game, that's 3 years before Dragon Quest 1 and four years before Final Fantasy 1. Ultima games tackled adult issues, amongst those allowing the player to steal and murder allowing a quicker yet inmoral path to richess.

The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond.

Although I completely disagree with the OP, you make some wild claims here as well.

As I had mentioned before, yes, of course there are those cliched purple haired, emo teen filled JRPGs with dreadful, convoluted dialogue. It's unfortunate that the entire genre gets generalised because of all the teens and tweens plastering them in their sigs as well as in their avatars.

However, there are plenty of JRPGs that skillfully tell a story. Take FFIV for example, storytelling to which every JRPG should aspire to. If youère looking for more recent examples, there is Tales of Vesperia. While there are a few cliches, it is overall done quite well. Or perhaps even Disgaea, which is basically a stroke of genious with its satirical storytelling, recognizing the often cliche and convoluted plots in many JRPGs. Fire Emblem, Lost Odyssey, FFXII, Persona and Valkyria Chronicles are all also examples of good-great storytelling.

"The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond."

That iss simply not true. Take a look at the RPGs that have come out this generation alone. Only two (BD and LO), I think, can fit that description. The rest have evolved in some form or another, whether they be action-based, or SRPGs, etc. Even within those sub-genres, they have evolved (e.g. Valkyria Chronicles, Parasite Eve, FFXII...)


It gets generalised because that's the reality of the situation.
I agree with you FFIV does a good job at storytelling - but that's the highpoint of the saga and it's an early 90's game. If anything, it supports my viewpoint that we are closer than ever to the cliche purple haired emofest. I don't agree witih your examples of good storytelling but if we are going to argue game-per-game this is gonna get tedious. 
Ah yeah Final Fantasy XII - it innovated indeed and pushed beyond but Squeenix has Squiished that. We are back now to good old battle screen transitions and turn-based battle.



Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

pearljammer on 16 June 2009
Bitmap Frogs said:
pearljammer said:
Bitmap Frogs said:

So basically WRPGs are soulles and artless because they lack purple hair, emo teens and lolis. Gotcha.

Now seriously: jrpg storytelling is very, very basic - typical anyme-ish. It's just the way they dress it with the whole "mysterious-trascendent-philosophical-religious-magical" shebang that makes people susceptible to such deception go "ooooh". It's the anime/jrpg equivalent of technobabble. From a narrative point of view, there's zero difference between the tirades about human nature and the trascendent so common in anime and JRPGs and Data blabbering about the antimatter gravity ripple interaction pressuring the ionospheric quantum barrier.

Then there's a bunch of deranged claims you make like tackling adult issues, changing the way videogames are orchestated, etc etc. Bunch of drivel. Why? One word: Richard Garriot's Ultima. Ever heard of it? It's the blueprint used by japanese developers to make their games.

Does this look familiar to you?

 

That's Ultima III field view. 

What about this?

 

That's Ultima III combat screen.

Ultima III is a 1983 game, that's 3 years before Dragon Quest 1 and four years before Final Fantasy 1. Ultima games tackled adult issues, amongst those allowing the player to steal and murder allowing a quicker yet inmoral path to richess.

The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond.

Although I completely disagree with the OP, you make some wild claims here as well.

As I had mentioned before, yes, of course there are those cliched purple haired, emo teen filled JRPGs with dreadful, convoluted dialogue. It's unfortunate that the entire genre gets generalised because of all the teens and tweens plastering them in their sigs as well as in their avatars.

However, there are plenty of JRPGs that skillfully tell a story. Take FFIV for example, storytelling to which every JRPG should aspire to. If youère looking for more recent examples, there is Tales of Vesperia. While there are a few cliches, it is overall done quite well. Or perhaps even Disgaea, which is basically a stroke of genious with its satirical storytelling, recognizing the often cliche and convoluted plots in many JRPGs. Fire Emblem, Lost Odyssey, FFXII, Persona and Valkyria Chronicles are all also examples of good-great storytelling.

"The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond."

That iss simply not true. Take a look at the RPGs that have come out this generation alone. Only two (BD and LO), I think, can fit that description. The rest have evolved in some form or another, whether they be action-based, or SRPGs, etc. Even within those sub-genres, they have evolved (e.g. Valkyria Chronicles, Parasite Eve, FFXII...)


It gets generalised because that's the reality of the situation.
I agree with you FFIV does a good job at storytelling - but that's the highpoint of the saga and it's an early 90's game. If anything, it supports my viewpoint that we are closer than ever to the cliche purple haired emofest. I don't agree witih your examples of good storytelling but if we are going to argue game-per-game this is gonna get tedious. 
Ah yeah Final Fantasy XII - it innovated indeed and pushed beyond but Squeenix has Squiished that. We are back now to good old battle screen transitions and turn-based battle.

Bolded: and pointless. I agree.



Bitmap Frogs on 16 June 2009
Citan said:


When you understand what "superflatness" means I`lll continue to discuss with you.

 

I don't think you really understand it - the superflat artist is a critic of the otaku movement. It uses the elements of modern consumerist otaku subculture and uses that same language to expose it for what it is. Modern jrpg's and it's aesthetic is precisely what the superflat guy is against. 

Not to mention the whole superflat thing was basically a one guy movement he "created" to prop himself up... art marketing.





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).