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pearljammer on 16 June 2009
S.T.A.G.E. said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
pearljammer said:

Do you get to choose the path of the story in the novel as well

I wouldn't think it'd be so difficult for people to appreciate that many people prefer their narative to be linear, focused and predetermined not unlike a novel.

@Soap opera and WB tv comment: I gotta say, many of the cliche JRPGs do give this impression and are, in fact, just terrible. They are also quite numerous. But that doesn't mean that we should generalise an entire genre.

Mass Effect 2 is going to have far more choices and consequences than the first game. Yes, the story was so good that they made a novel out of it. The difference between the game and the story is that it is your universe. This means anyone could be lost and anything can happen. I cannot wait to play that f'n game!

 

So, the novel is not linear then?

But I still dont understand why people are spouting linear storytelling as a bad thing. I cannot even think of a non-linear novel outside of old Goosebumps novels... and they were terrible.



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S.T.A.G.E. on 16 June 2009
Citan said:
slowmo said:
Citan said:
slowmo said:
xcot said:
slowmo said:
JRPG's are standing still with no innovation and the storylines are the same rehashed crap we've seen for the last 15 years recycled, it is no conincidence we have not had a AAA JRPG yet this generation. WRPG's for me show variety and they're all a bit different, look at the choices you're given in games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Fable 2, etc.

Apologies for slating your favourite genre to the JRPG fans, surely you guys must see that something needs to change in the genre if it is to survive in the long term?


Correction, we haven't had an AAA jrpg on consoles because the japanese like many western developers are caught up with graphics.

Where the DS s really innovating in RPGs.

Its has great S-jrpgs, normal jrpgs, unique jrpgs like pokemon and twewy etc.


No, they're just becoming stale and boring following the same generic story line with very little innovation of the genre.  Mass Effect and Fall Out 3 had great graphics and both provided innovations to their chosen genre, thats from a new IP and a existing IP under control of a new dev too.  If JRPG's don't start to evolve soon then they'll die out, the problem is gamers need to get the JRPG developers to understand this and they seemingly aren't listening.

Yer a funny fella. Tell me what`s so special with the story in me and fallout.

Does it compare to Xenosaga`s mix of:


Robots, Science Fiction, 12-year old girls in swimsuits, Drama, action, comedy, sex, philosophy, love, hate, friendship and intertekstual references to Friedrich Nietzsche`s subjects, Carl Gustav Jung`s Analytical psychology, The Bibel, Jewish religion, German history and novels, Anime.

 

I think not, so before you judge Jrpg`s, read a book and check if there are any intertekstual references in your favourite wrpg`s. A good story is not easy to make. You have to be well read.

 

Before you lecture somebody regarding their literacy it is common practive to not to include spelling mistakes in your retort, also your use of capital letters is also terrible.  I always laugh when a fanboys only retort to a criticism is to attack a individual rather than try to understand their viewpoint at all.  Perhaps you should both play and finish Mass Effect and Fallout 3 then you would know why both stories were so good.  Also I'm very well read thank you and know a good story when I see it.

Wow, you did actually avoid my point. And you start attacking me for my language even though I`m not fully lectured in english.

Just answer me this:

Do the story in me compare to the story in Xenosaga?????

It`s all I want to know from a "well read" man. I won`t attack you even though I can`t see I`ve attacked you as an individual.

First of all Xenosaga spans three games which are spinoffs of Xeno Gears. Xenosaga stood out in an era when JRPG's were at the top. Mass Effect definitely has one of the greatest storylines of all time, period.



pearljammer on 16 June 2009
pearljammer said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
pearljammer said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
mai said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
pearljammer said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

JRPG's arent typically RPG's. Take away the battle system from JRPG's and they are as typical as a simple action-adventure game. 'Nough said.

And if you take away jumping from a platformer, they would no longer be platformers.

You cannot just simply “take away” one of the most, if not the most, important elements of a game.

My point is that most JRPG's do not exemplify what an RPG is. The only thing they have going for them is the battle system which isn't enough to save it's credibility.


Blame Ultima and Wizardry, games that served as first inspiration for early jRPG creators. BTW for p'n'p RPG purists CRPGs aren't exactly RPGs as well. Those are very different experiences.


Ever played Dungeons and Dragons? Pencil and Paper RPG's where you created characters, controlled their strengths, affected the storyline by making certain choices, leveled them up and put them into battle with the characters a DM sets before you? Yeah...that is the concept of what real RPG's are.

I do not understand why we are focusing on whether or not JRPGs are 'real' RPGs. They simply were a brach off the typical RPG. That does not necessarily make them any better or any worse. Just different.

There are plenty of great hybrid games that borrow from several genres... it doesnèt take away from their so called 'credibility'. JRPG is simply a title... nothing to get hung up about.

 

WRPG's might be the rule, but they allow for more creativity and various styles of RPG's. Look at MMO's, first and third Person RPG's, FPS RPG's and TPS RPG's, team battle WRPG's (Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Champions of Norrath). That staple concept of RPG's started a wildfire of creativity. JRPG's have not been able to touch this truth.

I agree with you here. WRPGs have branched off in many directions, and that is fantastic! For example, I detest games like Oblivion but loved M:UA and Champions of Norrath.

Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, doesn't its aspects better reflect a JRPG rather than a WRPG? The story was linear and you didn't create your own character, you simply got to choose a pre-existing superhero.

But having that diversity does not take anything away from JRPGs. A JRPGs strength is in its linear scope. But they, too, have branched off quite a bit since they had started. MMOs, turned based, action based (some of it with options for multiplayer - Tales, Secret of Mana, etc), SRPGs, platforming-RPG.

There are quite a few different styles within JRPGs. Some of them may not seem as appealing to you nor are they as successful as many WRPGs, but they exist nonetheless.

*Edit - Also, I know you havenèt mentioned this, but can we really call WoW a WRPG? I have been playing it for years and it doesnt play like any other WRPG Ive ever played. I think MMOs are a whole other bag of marbles.

 



Citan on 16 June 2009
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Citan said:
slowmo said:
Citan said:
slowmo said:
xcot said:
slowmo said:
JRPG's are standing still with no innovation and the storylines are the same rehashed crap we've seen for the last 15 years recycled, it is no conincidence we have not had a AAA JRPG yet this generation. WRPG's for me show variety and they're all a bit different, look at the choices you're given in games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Fable 2, etc.

Apologies for slating your favourite genre to the JRPG fans, surely you guys must see that something needs to change in the genre if it is to survive in the long term?


Correction, we haven't had an AAA jrpg on consoles because the japanese like many western developers are caught up with graphics.

Where the DS s really innovating in RPGs.

Its has great S-jrpgs, normal jrpgs, unique jrpgs like pokemon and twewy etc.


No, they're just becoming stale and boring following the same generic story line with very little innovation of the genre.  Mass Effect and Fall Out 3 had great graphics and both provided innovations to their chosen genre, thats from a new IP and a existing IP under control of a new dev too.  If JRPG's don't start to evolve soon then they'll die out, the problem is gamers need to get the JRPG developers to understand this and they seemingly aren't listening.

Yer a funny fella. Tell me what`s so special with the story in me and fallout.

Does it compare to Xenosaga`s mix of:


Robots, Science Fiction, 12-year old girls in swimsuits, Drama, action, comedy, sex, philosophy, love, hate, friendship and intertekstual references to Friedrich Nietzsche`s subjects, Carl Gustav Jung`s Analytical psychology, The Bibel, Jewish religion, German history and novels, Anime.

 

I think not, so before you judge Jrpg`s, read a book and check if there are any intertekstual references in your favourite wrpg`s. A good story is not easy to make. You have to be well read.

 

Before you lecture somebody regarding their literacy it is common practive to not to include spelling mistakes in your retort, also your use of capital letters is also terrible.  I always laugh when a fanboys only retort to a criticism is to attack a individual rather than try to understand their viewpoint at all.  Perhaps you should both play and finish Mass Effect and Fallout 3 then you would know why both stories were so good.  Also I'm very well read thank you and know a good story when I see it.

Wow, you did actually avoid my point. And you start attacking me for my language even though I`m not fully lectured in english.

Just answer me this:

Do the story in me compare to the story in Xenosaga?????

It`s all I want to know from a "well read" man. I won`t attack you even though I can`t see I`ve attacked you as an individual.

First of all Xenosaga spans three games which are spinoffs of Xeno Gears. Xenosaga stood out in an era when JRPG's were at the top. Mass Effect definitely has one of the greatest storylines of all time, period.

Xenosaga is no spin off. Me might have a good story, but it uncomparable to Xenosaga. I`m sure of it unless someone can prove me that me have more "working" and interesting intertekstual references than Xenosaga.



S.T.A.G.E. on 16 June 2009
Citan said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Citan said:
slowmo said:
Citan said:
slowmo said:
xcot said:
slowmo said:
JRPG's are standing still with no innovation and the storylines are the same rehashed crap we've seen for the last 15 years recycled, it is no conincidence we have not had a AAA JRPG yet this generation. WRPG's for me show variety and they're all a bit different, look at the choices you're given in games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Fable 2, etc.

Apologies for slating your favourite genre to the JRPG fans, surely you guys must see that something needs to change in the genre if it is to survive in the long term?


Correction, we haven't had an AAA jrpg on consoles because the japanese like many western developers are caught up with graphics.

Where the DS s really innovating in RPGs.

Its has great S-jrpgs, normal jrpgs, unique jrpgs like pokemon and twewy etc.


No, they're just becoming stale and boring following the same generic story line with very little innovation of the genre.  Mass Effect and Fall Out 3 had great graphics and both provided innovations to their chosen genre, thats from a new IP and a existing IP under control of a new dev too.  If JRPG's don't start to evolve soon then they'll die out, the problem is gamers need to get the JRPG developers to understand this and they seemingly aren't listening.

Yer a funny fella. Tell me what`s so special with the story in me and fallout.

Does it compare to Xenosaga`s mix of:


Robots, Science Fiction, 12-year old girls in swimsuits, Drama, action, comedy, sex, philosophy, love, hate, friendship and intertekstual references to Friedrich Nietzsche`s subjects, Carl Gustav Jung`s Analytical psychology, The Bibel, Jewish religion, German history and novels, Anime.

 

I think not, so before you judge Jrpg`s, read a book and check if there are any intertekstual references in your favourite wrpg`s. A good story is not easy to make. You have to be well read.

 

Before you lecture somebody regarding their literacy it is common practive to not to include spelling mistakes in your retort, also your use of capital letters is also terrible.  I always laugh when a fanboys only retort to a criticism is to attack a individual rather than try to understand their viewpoint at all.  Perhaps you should both play and finish Mass Effect and Fallout 3 then you would know why both stories were so good.  Also I'm very well read thank you and know a good story when I see it.

Wow, you did actually avoid my point. And you start attacking me for my language even though I`m not fully lectured in english.

Just answer me this:

Do the story in me compare to the story in Xenosaga?????

It`s all I want to know from a "well read" man. I won`t attack you even though I can`t see I`ve attacked you as an individual.

First of all Xenosaga spans three games which are spinoffs of Xeno Gears. Xenosaga stood out in an era when JRPG's were at the top. Mass Effect definitely has one of the greatest storylines of all time, period.

Xenosaga is no spin off. Me might have a good story, but it uncomparable to Xenosaga. I`m sure of it unless someone can prove me that me have more "working" and interesting intertekstual references than Xenosaga.

Pray tell....what is ME's story?



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S.T.A.G.E. on 16 June 2009
pearljammer said:
pearljammer said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
pearljammer said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
mai said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
pearljammer said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

JRPG's arent typically RPG's. Take away the battle system from JRPG's and they are as typical as a simple action-adventure game. 'Nough said.

And if you take away jumping from a platformer, they would no longer be platformers.

You cannot just simply “take away” one of the most, if not the most, important elements of a game.

My point is that most JRPG's do not exemplify what an RPG is. The only thing they have going for them is the battle system which isn't enough to save it's credibility.


Blame Ultima and Wizardry, games that served as first inspiration for early jRPG creators. BTW for p'n'p RPG purists CRPGs aren't exactly RPGs as well. Those are very different experiences.


Ever played Dungeons and Dragons? Pencil and Paper RPG's where you created characters, controlled their strengths, affected the storyline by making certain choices, leveled them up and put them into battle with the characters a DM sets before you? Yeah...that is the concept of what real RPG's are.

I do not understand why we are focusing on whether or not JRPGs are 'real' RPGs. They simply were a brach off the typical RPG. That does not necessarily make them any better or any worse. Just different.

There are plenty of great hybrid games that borrow from several genres... it doesnèt take away from their so called 'credibility'. JRPG is simply a title... nothing to get hung up about.

 

WRPG's might be the rule, but they allow for more creativity and various styles of RPG's. Look at MMO's, first and third Person RPG's, FPS RPG's and TPS RPG's, team battle WRPG's (Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Champions of Norrath). That staple concept of RPG's started a wildfire of creativity. JRPG's have not been able to touch this truth.

I agree with you here. WRPGs have branched off in many directions, and that is fantastic! For example, I detest games like Oblivion but loved M:UA and Champions of Norrath.

Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, doesn't its aspects better reflect a JRPG rather than a WRPG? The story was linear and you didn't create your own character, you simply got to choose a pre-existing superhero.

But having that diversity does not take anything away from JRPGs. A JRPGs strength is in its linear scope. But they, too, have branched off quite a bit since they had started. MMOs, turned based, action based (some of it with options for multiplayer - Tales, Secret of Mana, etc), SRPGs, platforming-RPG.

There are quite a few different styles within JRPGs. Some of them may not seem as appealing to you nor are they as successful as many WRPGs, but they exist nonetheless.

*Edit - Also, I know you havenèt mentioned this, but can we really call WoW a WRPG? I have been playing it for years and it doesnt play like any other WRPG Ive ever played. I think MMOs are a whole other bag of marbles.

 

You have a good head on your shoulders. As for WOW...it is an RPG, just Massively multiplayer. WOW's story is affected by everyone in the live world. It's like playing Dungeons and Dragons with a shitload of people, without the pencil and paper.Square Enix has their hands full playing in a MMO war they cannot win.



Citan on 16 June 2009
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Citan said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Citan said:
slowmo said:
Citan said:
slowmo said:
xcot said:
slowmo said:
JRPG's are standing still with no innovation and the storylines are the same rehashed crap we've seen for the last 15 years recycled, it is no conincidence we have not had a AAA JRPG yet this generation. WRPG's for me show variety and they're all a bit different, look at the choices you're given in games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Fable 2, etc.

Apologies for slating your favourite genre to the JRPG fans, surely you guys must see that something needs to change in the genre if it is to survive in the long term?


Correction, we haven't had an AAA jrpg on consoles because the japanese like many western developers are caught up with graphics.

Where the DS s really innovating in RPGs.

Its has great S-jrpgs, normal jrpgs, unique jrpgs like pokemon and twewy etc.


No, they're just becoming stale and boring following the same generic story line with very little innovation of the genre.  Mass Effect and Fall Out 3 had great graphics and both provided innovations to their chosen genre, thats from a new IP and a existing IP under control of a new dev too.  If JRPG's don't start to evolve soon then they'll die out, the problem is gamers need to get the JRPG developers to understand this and they seemingly aren't listening.

Yer a funny fella. Tell me what`s so special with the story in me and fallout.

Does it compare to Xenosaga`s mix of:


Robots, Science Fiction, 12-year old girls in swimsuits, Drama, action, comedy, sex, philosophy, love, hate, friendship and intertekstual references to Friedrich Nietzsche`s subjects, Carl Gustav Jung`s Analytical psychology, The Bibel, Jewish religion, German history and novels, Anime.

 

I think not, so before you judge Jrpg`s, read a book and check if there are any intertekstual references in your favourite wrpg`s. A good story is not easy to make. You have to be well read.

 

Before you lecture somebody regarding their literacy it is common practive to not to include spelling mistakes in your retort, also your use of capital letters is also terrible.  I always laugh when a fanboys only retort to a criticism is to attack a individual rather than try to understand their viewpoint at all.  Perhaps you should both play and finish Mass Effect and Fallout 3 then you would know why both stories were so good.  Also I'm very well read thank you and know a good story when I see it.

Wow, you did actually avoid my point. And you start attacking me for my language even though I`m not fully lectured in english.

Just answer me this:

Do the story in me compare to the story in Xenosaga?????

It`s all I want to know from a "well read" man. I won`t attack you even though I can`t see I`ve attacked you as an individual.

First of all Xenosaga spans three games which are spinoffs of Xeno Gears. Xenosaga stood out in an era when JRPG's were at the top. Mass Effect definitely has one of the greatest storylines of all time, period.

Xenosaga is no spin off. Me might have a good story, but it uncomparable to Xenosaga. I`m sure of it unless someone can prove me that me have more "working" and interesting intertekstual references than Xenosaga.

Pray tell....what is ME's story?

...??? Yes, what is it? We are trying to compare two games which both of us haven`t played both. But I can tell why Xenosaga have a flawless story, and you still haven`t told me why me have a good story. I`m not interested in opinions, but proof why it have a good story.



pearljammer on 16 June 2009
S.T.A.G.E. said:

You have a good head on your shoulders. As for WOW...it is an RPG, just Massively multiplayer. WOW's story is affected by everyone in the live world. It's like playing Dungeons and Dragons with a shitload of people, without the pencil and paper.

Yeah, it's definitely a strange case. For example, in all my time playing post-Burning Crusade, I've chosen not to raid (take down the big bosses). But nonetheless, they've all died. I had nothing to do with it, but the thousands of others on my server did. It really was a great game.

All this talk of Mass Effect has got me thinking about giving it another try... I was going to start Blue Dragon, but maybe something of a different pace would be better.



Bitmap Frogs on 16 June 2009

So basically WRPGs are soulles and artless because they lack purple hair, emo teens and lolis. Gotcha.

Now seriously: jrpg storytelling is very, very basic - typical anyme-ish. It's just the way they dress it with the whole "mysterious-trascendent-philosophical-religious-magical" shebang that makes people susceptible to such deception go "ooooh". It's the anime/jrpg equivalent of technobabble. From a narrative point of view, there's zero difference between the tirades about human nature and the trascendent so common in anime and JRPGs and Data blabbering about the antimatter gravity ripple interaction pressuring the ionospheric quantum barrier.

Then there's a bunch of deranged claims you make like tackling adult issues, changing the way videogames are orchestated, etc etc. Bunch of drivel. Why? One word: Richard Garriot's Ultima. Ever heard of it? It's the blueprint used by japanese developers to make their games.

Does this look familiar to you?

That's Ultima III field view. 

What about this?

That's Ultima III combat screen.

Ultima III is a 1983 game, that's 3 years before Dragon Quest 1 and four years before Final Fantasy 1. Ultima games tackled adult issues, amongst those allowing the player to steal and murder allowing a quicker yet inmoral path to richess.

The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that (most, including the two premier franchises Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy) JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond.





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

Citan on 16 June 2009
Bitmap Frogs said:

So basically WRPGs are soulles and artless because they lack purple hair, emo teens and lolis. Gotcha.

Now seriously: jrpg storytelling is very, very basic - typical anyme-ish. It's just the way they dress it with the whole "mysterious-trascendent-philosophical-religious-magical" shebang that makes people susceptible to such deception go "ooooh". It's the anime/jrpg equivalent of technobabble. From a narrative point of view, there's zero difference between the tirades about human nature and the trascendent so common in anime and JRPGs and Data blabbering about the antimatter gravity ripple interaction pressuring the ionospheric quantum barrier.

Then there's a bunch of deranged claims you make like tackling adult issues, changing the way videogames are orchestated, etc etc. Bunch of drivel. Why? One word: Richard Garriot's Ultima. Ever heard of it? It's the blueprint used by japanese developers to make their games.

Does this look familiar to you?

That's Ultima III field view.

What about this?

That's Ultima III combat screen.

Ultima III is a 1983 game, that's 3 years before Dragon Quest 1 and four years before Final Fantasy 1. Ultima games tackled adult issues, amongst those allowing the player to steal and murder allowing a quicker yet inmoral path to richess.

The difference between JRPGs and WRPGs is that (most, including the two premier franchises Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy) JRPGs are basically still this but with prettier graphics. WRPGs have gone beyond.

Read this before you open your mouth on this thread ever again:

http://www.hirokiazuma.com/en/texts/superflat_en1.html

 

Not for bitmap to read:

What`s so funny with this guy is that he says that Jrpg`s are based on wrpg`s.

And?

Can`t something be better when it`s based on something?

Isn`t everything based on something?