Thank you for pointing this out for me, I had forgotten much of the lingo (though I missed the part where Blissey could be a sweeper, apparently, especially with her speed).

You've just gone on to illustrate my point further, though. You didn't take away from the idea of Pokemon fulfilling roles, you just set up the idea that each Pokemon can fill out multiple roles. The roles are still there, and they're still necessary in order to be competitively viable.

Again, the complexity of the game is not inherent to its mechanics. The metagame revolves around game theory, and severely limits the number of viable ways in which any given battle may be approached.

If you consider something like "stealth rock supporter" a role, then you basically just stated that every single move has a role behind it. She's only a sweeper cause of Calm Mind, again, you are making an entire role around a single move. Choice band or scarf can be a role too then... or mixed sweeper, or salac berry, or speed boost, or thunder wave, or hypnosis, or dragon dance, or anything. Every single move is a role then by your statement, in which case the possible "roles" are endless.

So yeah, I think that's a pretty apt description.

Alright Naznatips, I'm getting really sick of this. You may not like that I'm insulting your beloved Pokemon, but you're insulting me. You removed my modship for making snide and insulting remarks; but right now, as far as I'm concerned, you're doing the same thing. Saying I know "jack shit" about Pokemon and saying I'm ignorant or that my posts are ignorant is incredibly rude and unfitting of you. I read over the site, and you're right. People held battles in Pokemon Red over an unofficial web based program. Stat difference and customization aren't that different from what you could find in a bunch of different RPGs. I never said there were 4 "best" moves. I meant that they were what you decided to be the best. And it's only 4. No matter how complicated people have made it, it's still a simple game at heart.

Don't bother responding if you're going to insult me again, by the way.

With all the money and time thats being put into FF13 i expect this game to surpass Tales of Vesperia and become the new jrpg king of this gen (i hope it does). What are your thoughts? Will FF13 at least surpass your favorite jrpg this gen?

@Montana
Yeah. "Losing argument'. Except I was trying to have an intelligent discussion that promoted mutual introspection and critical thought towards an eventual consensus. No need to get so waspish.

I do not see why you are bringing other genres into the argument. Obviously I am talking exclusively about RPG's; please do not misapply my points.

Since it has evaded you thus far, here is my stripped down point: RPG's, unique among games, can succeed and be beloved even with unremarkable gameplay. This is impossible (or nearly-so) for any other genre. Obviously, again, the better the gameplay, the better the game, that's really here nor there.

Final Fantasy 7 is a turn-based game with a Materia spin on things. Objectively, it is neither innovative nor brilliantly fun; it has the grinding/building appeal but then, so do ALL RPG's (including, yes, Pokemon.)

This is nitpicking, but to attempt to contradict my Ace Attorney arguments by assuming they must have gameplay elements.....OBJECTION! Apollo Justice has a few gimmicky touch-screen minigames that are irrelevant to the core experience; that's it. It's all logic and narrative and writing and characters.

RPG's can, counter-intuitively enough, be great without great gameplay. Not all the time, not even often, and great gameplay will, 99% of the time, make any RPG that is great with merely adequate gameplay far-and-away a better game.

Okay, barring a response that BEGS countering, I'm done. Enough expounding on the RPG genre for the day.

Graphically, yes of course absolutely this will be the best, I'm still positive this won't be my favorite final fantasy.

Graphically the best??? yea right...SE doesn't have the graphics edge anymore

@blaydcor
Actually, I mostly agree about RPGs and gameplay, but you're probably speaking to people who like to delve into the raw mechanics more than your average gamer.

I've been a game master and player of pencil and paper RPGs for, hmm, that's about 20 years now and the same is mirrored there.

You'll have your players that are there to be told a story, that they want to savor and twist, but they barely care about the underlying mechanics. So much in fact that campaigns can be transposed from a game system to another.

And then there are the completionists, the powerplayers, the exploiters, the technicians... all people who want to know and control the game system down to the smallest nooks and crannies.

Of course nothing holds players from being somewhere inbetween these extremes, but as the RPG has the unique property of living on the sharp edge between storytelling and game, I suppose we'll have to live with this duality.

ZERO. Why? Because that place has already been taken and remain so by Final Fantasy III.

I really hope you mean VI.

@WereKitten, Yes, that's the same fundamental split that I've become aware of over the past few years. It's dissonances like that between gamers that makes for so much internal conflict and endless debate in the gaming community, making a game timeless to one person's tastes while utterly worthless to another.