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Forums - Microsoft - Development Costs and Royalties on PS3 and 360

shina, every company has done various things to garner developer interest in their systems. Sega, when the Genesis was just coming out, bribed EA to develop for the Genesis exclusively. Their agreement? Near royalty free costs, and EA could make as many games as they wanted to (ala the Atari days).

I would argue that MS is still charging around $7 a disk, but Sony is probably charging more for the Blu-Ray fee. But thats just imo.

I don't get it though - how the heck can Nintendo manage to charge a $10 royalty to developers per disk? Thats just stupid. Nintendo is far greedier than MS or Sony in that regards - atleast MS and Sony are making the games more expensive to offset their costs.



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mrstickball said:
I don't get it though - how the heck can Nintendo manage to charge a $10 royalty to developers per disk? Thats just stupid. Nintendo is far greedier than MS or Sony in that regards - atleast MS and Sony are making the games more expensive to offset their costs.
Where does it say how much Nintendo is charging?

Poster gave those #s...Very sad if true.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Poster gave those #s...Very sad if true.

 Which poster gave what number?

 



mrstickball said:
shina, every company has done various things to garner developer interest in their systems. Sega, when the Genesis was just coming out, bribed EA to develop for the Genesis exclusively. Their agreement? Near royalty free costs, and EA could make as many games as they wanted to (ala the Atari days).

I would argue that MS is still charging around $7 a disk, but Sony is probably charging more for the Blu-Ray fee. But thats just imo.

I don't get it though - how the heck can Nintendo manage to charge a $10 royalty to developers per disk? Thats just stupid. Nintendo is far greedier than MS or Sony in that regards - atleast MS and Sony are making the games more expensive to offset their costs.

You do realize that not all licencing agreements and development kits are created equal, aren't you?

The PS2's development kit was PS2 hardware with a command line compiler and very poor documentation, developers were essentially on their own to produce a decent PS2 game. The Gamecube (on the other hand) came with several pieces of common middleware which companies would (typically) spend thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars to buy or develop for themselves.

 



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mrstickball said:
shina, every company has done various things to garner developer interest in their systems. 

 sarcasm



We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that they [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine and half years? It's a learning process. - SCEI president Kaz Hirai

It's a virus where you buy it and you play it with your friends and they're like, "Oh my God that's so cool, I'm gonna go buy it." So you stop playing it after two months, but they buy it and they stop playing it after two months but they've showed it to someone else who then go out and buy it and so on. Everyone I know bought one and nobody turns it on. - Epic Games president Mike Capps

We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games. - Activision CEO Bobby Kotick

 

....But for a million selling software title, that's millions of dollars.

I know Nintendo has always had better documentation software, but when your talking 500,000+ units of sales, $10 or more is very inhibitive.



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This is part of the equation that has been brought up before by myself and others. Which almost immediately gets ignored. The PS3 has a far lower profit margin for developers. Which translates into a higher minimum sales requirement. Developing for the PS3 is a serious gamble. There is a smaller margin for error. For many developers that makes developing for the PS3 a uncomfortable proposition.

Sony does have higher licensing fees from what I understand, and it does not look like it is going to change any time in the near future. This is how Sony really makes the money off of their machines. The royalties are being used to offset the development and manufacturing costs of the console, and more so to support the online development. With the low attach rate, and install base there is nothing to drive their fees down.

Sony has invested in the cartridge format of this generation. Do not be fooled by the effectiveness of modern disc drives. Cartridges had serious benefits including no load time, and built in upgradeable technology. Their was a serious technological debate at the time of the 64 no different then today. However at the end of the day the proprietary expenses of the cart format did hurt the 64 when it came to developer support. Sony is making money off of Blu Ray manufacture in the same way that Nintendo did.

Sony has also invested in a complex architecture which requires more resources to develop for. Cutting edge coding tools are not free, and most definitely not cheap. While you can develop for the other two consoles at a much smaller expense. Sony is trying to correct this, and it shows they can learn however its a little late to be providing great development tool support. That should have been in place a year before the console launched.

Everything about the PS3 drives up development costs, and decreases profit margins. The royalties, format, support, and technology all form a perfect storm to scare away developers. The most damning thing is just how many copies of a game a developer must sell to make a profit, and we can even ignore the high end games on this issue. Look towards the low level games. The developer is not looking to sell millions. They are looking to sell to a smaller or niche market.

During earlier generations it was possible to sell a hundred thousand copies of a game over a life time and make some decent money as long as the development costs on the game were small. You see these games in the bargain bin all of the time. However with the PS3 your sales must be significantly stronger then they were before, and it will be harder to get to that minimum profit bar. Perhaps now you need to sell a hundred and fifty thousand copies of a game. That doesn't seem like much unless your the guy trying to sell a fishing simulator, hunting simulator, or a puzzle game. Some of these games have small budgets, because they will have small sales. The developer is comfortable with that. However the more they have to sell to turn a profit the less likely they are to succeed. Many developers live on marginal profits, and did so the last generation. Can they even survive developing for the PS3?

Like I said earlier this will most likely be ignored by those that should be paying attention. This is a serious flaw in the Sony plan, and its almost copying the exact same mistakes that Nintendo made with the 64. These things hurt developer support not only on the high end games, but more dramatically on the low end games that engender the bulk of a library. Not every game is going to be popular genre, or a multi million selling block buster.



If this article is to be believed, I just wonder if MS has over the course of the last six years has moneyhatted more to third parties than they have collected in royalties. Do they have any other gameplan to make money in the long run other than monopolizing the industry?



Nate said:
If this article is to be believed, I just wonder if MS has over the course of the last six years has moneyhatted more to third parties than they have collected in royalties. Do they have any other gameplan to make money in the long run other than monopolizing the industry?
That was their game plan. They're so used to monopolies in other markets (Windows, Office) that the executives truly believed they could get a monopoly in this one with enough investment. Their entire operation is set up to profit only in a market-dominating position for that reason. Currently they are celebrating victory and think that profits will start happening soon because of Sony's mistakes, but they haven't fully reckoned with Nintendo yet: it'll be an interesting fight especially considering X360 in Japan.

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