That is a completely biased opinion that only hardcore Sony fans would ever attempt to make into a statement of apparent fact. That is your opinion, and millions disagree. I understand that you are just defending a game you love, but this graphics BS from Sony fans is rediculious. The only way to tell these two games apart is the artstyle. The graphics are so close, nobody can tell the technical difference without a microscope or the equivelant thereof, as far as car models go.

Fact is, GT5, nor FM3 are even out yet.

What is not debatable is FM3 has full damage models and amazing detail in environment and backgrounds also. This part is debatable: GT5:P not somuch.

lol I like how you edited the end of you post "millions disagree" huh ? . Hmm you'll find that I say it as it is being both critical of MS and Sony where neccasery so calling me a "hardcore sony fan" isn't really going to damage the core of my argument.

If Forza has 4X the polygon count of GT5 cars then it may not have 4X the visual advantage but there will be a clear visual advantage , which arguably there isn't ( A 200,000 polygon difference alone would be siginficant and Forza fans are arguing it's 600,000 difference). Maybe it's my hardcore Sony opinion that's not allowing me to see 4X the polygon count in the clearly superior Forza 4 game , but I don't.

I don't love GT5:P , I personaly find it boring , I played Forza 3 in my local games rental shop and despite it being boring as well it was slightly more fun. If you argue that the technical difference is as much as 600,000 polygons (many 360 fans arguing it to be 800,000) then we don't need techical knowhow about the game to know that , that claim is absolute rubish.

We all know that GT5 will be a leap from GT5:P so arguing whether Forza 3 is better than a game released two years ago is kinda funny , well if it is better it ought to be.

edit : and FFS stop referring to people on the "GAF" how  many of them are involved in the development of Forza 3 ? and I meant Forza 2 lol i'm not claiming to have played a game not released yet.

"The emperor's naked, and I don't want to, you know, I don't want to slap him around"

That made me LOL.

That is a very flawed way to look at things, this whole "AAA because Metacritic says so" stuff is way overplayed, especially since Metacritc leaves out 80 - 100 reviews. GT4 was an improvement and a better game then GT3. If GT3 was "AAA", then so was GT4, regardless of being 1 point below 90.

That's not true. Actually, I'm breaking our agreement by even talking to you. Both of us have driven this road before. Remember?

I don't care if you are a fan or not, but what you said, when you stated it like it was a fact, was your opinion, and not a fact.

Also, your reasoning here is completely off the wall. Just because you can't distinguish something from a screenshot or a trailer doesn't mean it isn't a fact(I'm not saying it is a fact). How do you know you could tell the difference? Did you know that polygon count isn't the only thing that factors into your vision when you view an animated object? How many polygons does Wall-E have? You don't even know if you could tell a difference, so your eye test(with obviously biased eyes, sorry, but I've been down this road with you before) IS NOT evidence, and is actually completely and utterly insignificant in this argument. If you want proof, do a good search and stop speculating. I'm not claiming anything but what I heard, and I don't care. I wouldn't even bring it up if people didn't keep asking me about it, like you. I didn't start it, and I dont' care.

However, yes, at least 1 million people thing FM3 looks better than GT5:P graphically. I would bet at least that part is true(though I have no proof and that is just my personal speculation). Most people who have seen both games would fall on that side I'd wager.

I am going to attempt to be as fair as possible here

I can't imagine what it must be like to attempt to back Forza when it goes up against GT.
I have been looking at the E3 stuff on Forza 3, and they have... rollover, rewind, stat tracking, online posting, paint mods, maybe some physics, all of which MIGHT be better than GT.
(because we simply dont know everything that GT is bringing to the table)

From what we know GT5 has WRC mode, Nascar, more cars, more tracks, and imo insanely better graphics. (cant help shouting my opinion for the graphics)

take a look at the gameplay trailer from this E3 for GT, that cam inside the WRC car is amazing.
The whole sleekness and general vibe from GT is unbelievable.

The game is just pure class. Gran Turismo has always and will always be THE Racing game.
Certain games like Forza may come along and be slightly more realistic in one aspect of simulation racing.. but everyone compromises in the name of fun gameplay eventually.. shown in rewind mode that Forza now has.

I think its a great idea, but a feature like that is taking away any strengths that Forza may have had over GT in being a slightly more realistic racing sim, imo.

Now I am sure both games will be great.
But these arguments are ridiculous.. what is a quality game?
It is something that gets noticed.
Sales don't exist for no reason. (double negative, but for good reason)

I have a 360 and PS3 and will probably buy both games. But for now until we see and know more, my above post is accurate imo.

Here is something for you Zen,

The truth of the matter is; a lot of gamers have never played a forza game, some aren't even aware of the franchise. And they never will be, not as long as Gran Turismo is around.
(you can go around spouting, but what does that have to do with quality!!!, but maybe you should actually think of the right answer to your own question.... Answer: Everything)

No game comes close? That is absolute bullshit, and you know it.
From an objective point of view, we all know 1 game AT LEAST comes close...

GRAN TURISMO!

but with that being said, Forza is looking pretty good.

fyi, I think this is the most caps i have ever used in a thread

Here, I looked it up, and found this quickly:

"Tires will visibly deform and degrade depending on how you race and which track you use"

60fps
10x more polygons than Forza 2

the difference between Forza 2 and 3? its like a whole new generation console

Forza 2


same car in Forza 3

http://game.ali213.net/archiver/tid-2609580.html

Polygons:

GT5:P has 200,000 per car

Link: http://game.ali213.net/archiver/tid-2609580.html

MS claims that Forza 3 has 10x more polygons than Forza 2, which had 100,000.( http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20090603_212305.html , apparently, I don't read japanese.)

That is why the rumor. I don't know if it's true, nor do I care, but this stuff is easy to find out, and I'm not looking for it anymore.

Some sites are also claiming 1080p, but I don't believe that. :P

I wish he would just shut up. his arrogance has meant that any chance of me actually buying his game has dissapeared

Just because you prefer the artstyle, doesn't mean the graphics in GT are "better." However, they might be. That said, you do sound a little unfair to Forza 3, no offense. Sounds like you made your mind up, then came up with a bunch of reasons to support one game over another.

I'm not flaming, you have a right to your opinion, but realize that it is only your opinion, as is mine.

I think you are dead WRONG when you claim that the graphics in GT5 are "insanely better"

Listen to me and believe this:

No game ever, has had graphics that could be considered "insanely better" than Forza 3. None. That is all.

those pics on the poly count are informative, thanks

I guess the question becomes if GT5 P has 200k poly, will GT5 final have the same?

man those tail lights are so different between the 2 pics