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Forums - Microsoft - Lee on Xbox Natal

NJ5 said:

@daroamer:

A simple question: what's your evidence to say the failure of the demo was probably not related to the tracking?

In that demo, they show not only weird movements but also limbs going completely out of place compared to what the demo guy was doing. If I'm seeing it wrong, please explain how.

In other words... if the tracking device was tracking and identifying all the limbs correctly, how did the end result fail like that?

 

My observation is based on experience in working with 3D models and animation.  Tracking can mess up easily if your character is not skinned/rigged properly or if the software is not interpreting the data correctly. 

A simple example:

Natal is tracking the arm and reads a rotation of 90 degrees, if the software reads the coordinates but turns counter-clockwise instead of clockwise then Natal has given the proper cordinates yet the software interpreted it wrong and now although the arm is in the right place it's twisted horribly.  That's a very basic example but it illustrates that it can easily be the software and the not the hardware that's at fault.

Also, you're ignoring the Ricochet demo where you could clearly see the avatar on screen was tracking properly to her movements.



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Putting ragdoll-style contraints on the bones of the rig aren't going to solve the issues they were seeing in the avatar tracking. It may provide something of a safety net, or even allow them to come up with several solutions to a particular image, and choose the "best" one.

In the end, the problem was the lighting on stage, as I said.

It worked much better on the show floor, where the lighting was set up much better. They also didn't show any demos that involved multiple people at the show, that I recall, except in their silly "what if" video. The number of problems with solving that are downright staggering, and they aren't going to solve it without turning your living room into a fully-lit lab.

For it to be useful for games, I believe a tracking marker will eventually be required. Sony's wand demos were pretty good -- far superior to the simplistic 2D stuff MS was showing, and the PSEye, frankly, has done for years. Combine that with Natal's nice camera and the software they are working on.. then you might have something feasible. Even a wristband with a reflective patch might do the trick.

The media's craze, over what basically amounted to a premade video and some very simple show floor demos, still kind of boggles me.  The "what if?" imagination that MS has stirred up with Natal is really something.  But it really is just that, at this point -- a dreamy image.  I wish them luck though -- if they succeed it'll really be spectacular.



 

Procrastinato said:
badgenome said:
Procrastinato said:
I hope they sell proper room lighting with the system. I believe it may be necessary to illuminate your livingroom much like the E3 setup for the system to work properly.

Sadly, I'm not joking.

Actually, Kotaku and others have said that they tried it out in some dimly lit hotel room settings. Word is that it doesn't require much lighting, if any.

The Natal device itself would have to paint the users without lighting, and from a lot of different angles too.  Lee's own blog states that the system comes up with a 3D image, and its not going to come up with such a thing without a lot of thorough data input, via light or sound.  I'm kinda suspicious of these reports.

We'll see I guess.  I have a strong feeling that some sort of marker device (like Sony's wand, or a Wiimote, possibly in wearable form) will be necessary in the end product, for the system to truly work decently enough to be viable.

As I understand it, Natal doesn't need lighting because it's an active sensor, not a passive one. It doesn't rely on light in the environment bouncing off an object and into the camera, it sends out its own pulses of infrared light and measures how long the light takes to return to construct its 3D image.

Now, Natal does also have a conventional video camera which would rely on environmental light, but that seems to have little to do with the interface. It mostly just seems to be for scanning people and objects and sending those pictures to the software. You could still play Burnout in a dark room, you just couldn't videoconference with your cousin.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

Procrastinato said:

Putting ragdoll-style contraints on the bones of the rig aren't going to solve the issues they were seeing in the avatar tracking. It may provide something of a safety net, or even allow them to come up with several solutions to a particular image, and choose the "best" one.

In the end, the problem was the lighting on stage, as I said.

It worked much better on the show floor, where the lighting was set up much better. They also didn't show any demos that involved multiple people at the show, that I recall, except in their silly "what if" video. The number of problems with solving that are downright staggering, and they aren't going to solve it without turning your living room into a fully-lit lab.

For it to be useful for games, I believe a tracking marker will eventually be required. Sony's wand demos were pretty good -- far superior to the simplistic 2D stuff MS was showing, and the PSEye, frankly, has done for years. Combine that with Natal's nice camera and the software they are working on.. then you might have something feasible. Even a wristband with a reflective patch might do the trick.

The media's craze, over what basically amounted to a premade video and some very simple show floor demos, still kind of boggles me.  The "what if?" imagination that MS has stirred up with Natal is really something.  But it really is just that, at this point -- a dreamy image.  I wish them luck though -- if they succeed it'll really be spectacular.

I would disagree about the lighting on the stage.  The camera emits its own infrared light to detect depth.

I would have to say the problem lies in their skeletal system algorithm for a rotating body.  Something got wonky when Kudo turned around.  It will most assuredly be fixed before release.



daroamer said:
dbot said:
Anyone else find it funny that Johnny Lee is working for Microsoft? About 18 months ago he was the Nintendo poster boy. It's either funny or ironic, I can't decide.

I do find it hard to believe that MS is going to deliver a consumer technology that academic institutions don't have. I guess anything is possible.

As much as I hate using the word.....only fanboys would find this funny.  It's EXTREMELY common for people to work for companies that are in "competition", business is business.  The head of Media Molecule who made Little Big Planet used to work for Lionhead.  Amir M who was one of the driving forced behind HD DVD at Microsoft used to work for Sony.  It's just a job.

That's quite a leap, and only those types of people call others that name.

 

On topic, someone please present Johnny Lee's credentials other than he recently earned his PHD at Carnegie Mellon.  Other than being an Internet sensation with his Wii-mote projects, why are you debating what he says?



Thanks for the input, Jeff.

 

 

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Why did the Natal demo have +200ms of annoying lag?
(while this head tracking experiment with the wii-remote has almost no visible lag)