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Forums - Microsoft - Project Natal Exercise Video could be the killer ap

bardicverse on 05 June 2009
ironman said:

 You first question (how do you move forward, backwards, strafe left. etc.) has an obviouse answer, you actually perform those actions. you want to straft left, move left, you wanna jump, jump, you wanna turn around, twist your body. you wanna reload your weapon, act like you are reloading a gun, you wanna switch weapons, just say so! 

 

Ah, glad someone finally is attempting to address this question. My problem with this is, how does the system know you want to turn  and stay that way? Eventually you'll have to look at the screen. Virtual Reality addressed this concept with a headset/goggles that served as the monitor. There's a lot more questions, but we'll start there.

 



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ironman on 05 June 2009
bardicverse said:
ironman said:

 You first question (how do you move forward, backwards, strafe left. etc.) has an obviouse answer, you actually perform those actions. you want to straft left, move left, you wanna jump, jump, you wanna turn around, twist your body. you wanna reload your weapon, act like you are reloading a gun, you wanna switch weapons, just say so! 

 

Ah, glad someone finally is attempting to address this question. My problem with this is, how does the system know you want to turn  and stay that way? Eventually you'll have to look at the screen. Virtual Reality addressed this concept with a headset/goggles that served as the monitor. There's a lot more questions, but we'll start there.

 

Verbal commands?  



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HappySqurriel on 05 June 2009
ironman said:
HappySqurriel said:
ironman said:
I firmly believe it will be sensitive enough to run a FPS, it's 3D, and looks to be fairly sensitive from what I've seen in just the E3 video. They obviously have some lag issues and other little glitches to work through, but with the help of the game devs. I have no doubt that they will pull it off.

We can argue about sensitivity when it is closer to being a real product ... But how do you move (forward, backwards, strafe left, strafe right), crouch, jump, rotate camera (left, right, up, down), reload weapons, and switch weapons?

How do you know that the lag isn't inherant of needing multiple datapoints to identify motion and (therfore) always being several camera-frames behind the user's motion? How do you know they will be able to solve the glitch problems? How do you know that Milo wasn't entirely scripted, and you could tell him to "Go to hell" and he would gladly continue along his script?

You seem completely unwilling to consider any possiblity except that everything that was shown was entirely possible and will be better than you could possibly imagine ... Which is unrealistic and is setting yourself up for disapointment.

You sir, completely misread everything I had posted her. You also fail to see the obviouise. You first question (how do you move forward, backwards, strafe left. etc.) has an obviouse answer, you actually perform those actions. you want to straft left, move left, you wanna jump, jump, you wanna turn around, twist your body. you wanna reload your weapon, act like you are reloading a gun, you wanna switch weapons, just say so!

The lag you speak on probably does need several data points, but as the software develops, they should find a way to more efficiantly pick those points, thus resulting in less lag. Also, the 3D feature helps reduce lag, since it is able to pick up more points. Also, nobody said MILO wasn't "scripted" he isn't in a sense, but as will all programs, he has his limitations. He "learns" from the person playing the game, and adapts to what he knows. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it's very impressive software.

How can that actually work though ...

I've got a 2 meter by 2 meter playing area and I want to strafe along a 10 meter wall, run 20 meters forward while shooting at a person that is in a tower that is 40 Meters in the air. When I get to the tower I want to turn around the corner while maintaining an ability to see what is in front of me (what is on the screen) while I turn.

Your idea has me taking a couple of steps and running into a wall, running forward through my screen while pointing at the corner of my room pretending that there is a soldier up there, and then turning and looking at the other wall to see what is in front of me ...



ironman on 05 June 2009

you wouldn't have to move very far, it could scale the motion, much like a mouse scales the distance you move it, with the distance on your computer screen.



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Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

mrstickball on 05 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:
ironman said:
HappySqurriel said:
ironman said:
I firmly believe it will be sensitive enough to run a FPS, it's 3D, and looks to be fairly sensitive from what I've seen in just the E3 video. They obviously have some lag issues and other little glitches to work through, but with the help of the game devs. I have no doubt that they will pull it off.

We can argue about sensitivity when it is closer to being a real product ... But how do you move (forward, backwards, strafe left, strafe right), crouch, jump, rotate camera (left, right, up, down), reload weapons, and switch weapons?

How do you know that the lag isn't inherant of needing multiple datapoints to identify motion and (therfore) always being several camera-frames behind the user's motion? How do you know they will be able to solve the glitch problems? How do you know that Milo wasn't entirely scripted, and you could tell him to "Go to hell" and he would gladly continue along his script?

You seem completely unwilling to consider any possiblity except that everything that was shown was entirely possible and will be better than you could possibly imagine ... Which is unrealistic and is setting yourself up for disapointment.

You sir, completely misread everything I had posted her. You also fail to see the obviouise. You first question (how do you move forward, backwards, strafe left. etc.) has an obviouse answer, you actually perform those actions. you want to straft left, move left, you wanna jump, jump, you wanna turn around, twist your body. you wanna reload your weapon, act like you are reloading a gun, you wanna switch weapons, just say so!

The lag you speak on probably does need several data points, but as the software develops, they should find a way to more efficiantly pick those points, thus resulting in less lag. Also, the 3D feature helps reduce lag, since it is able to pick up more points. Also, nobody said MILO wasn't "scripted" he isn't in a sense, but as will all programs, he has his limitations. He "learns" from the person playing the game, and adapts to what he knows. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it's very impressive software.

How can that actually work though ...

I've got a 2 meter by 2 meter playing area and I want to strafe along a 10 meter wall, run 20 meters forward while shooting at a person that is in a tower that is 40 Meters in the air. When I get to the tower I want to turn around the corner while maintaining an ability to see what is in front of me (what is on the screen) while I turn.

Your idea has me taking a couple of steps and running into a wall, running forward through my screen while pointing at the corner of my room pretending that there is a soldier up there, and then turning and looking at the other wall to see what is in front of me ...

Well.....

You walk in place, strafing sideways (this works in real life, just like walking in real life). When you want to run forward and shoot the guy, you run forward, and aim your fake rifle (with the crosshairs) in the air, and pull the trigger....Suprisingly, you can do this without moving more than a few CM from your center, believe it or not. If you want to turn, then turn your body 45*, while continuing to look at the screen.

I mean, if EA Sports Active can have you do stuff like that and Wii Fit can (with the balance board), then you can do it with a camera that's mapped your legs.

On the other end, you could always use a 'tilt forward' aspect - to where your torso acts as the joypad movements of forward, back, and strafes, while your head acts as the right thumbstick.

It's feasable. You just have to understand how it works



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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HappySqurriel on 05 June 2009
mrstickball said:

Well.....

You walk in place, strafing sideways (this works in real life, just like walking in real life). When you want to run forward and shoot the guy, you run forward, and aim your fake rifle (with the crosshairs) in the air, and pull the trigger....Suprisingly, you can do this without moving more than a few CM from your center, believe it or not. If you want to turn, then turn your body 45*, while continuing to look at the screen.

I mean, if EA Sports Active can have you do stuff like that and Wii Fit can (with the balance board), then you can do it with a camera that's mapped your legs.

On the other end, you could always use a 'tilt forward' aspect - to where your torso acts as the joypad movements of forward, back, and strafes, while your head acts as the right thumbstick.

It's feasable. You just have to understand how it works


There are probably (several) ways you could get more complicated games to work with NATAL if you tried, but most of what I can think of don't seem any simpler, more intuitive, or more expressive than what is currently available they're just different ... The obvious one (to me) was holding your hand out with your thumb in the air and if you rotate you use motions from the wrist to represent rotations and motions from the arm to represent movement. This doesn't seem any more intuitive to what is available currently, and can be duplicated with the Wiimote using Wii MotionPlus (completely) without the need for a nunchuck.



ironman on 05 June 2009
mrstickball said:
HappySqurriel said:
ironman said:
HappySqurriel said:
ironman said:
I firmly believe it will be sensitive enough to run a FPS, it's 3D, and looks to be fairly sensitive from what I've seen in just the E3 video. They obviously have some lag issues and other little glitches to work through, but with the help of the game devs. I have no doubt that they will pull it off.

We can argue about sensitivity when it is closer to being a real product ... But how do you move (forward, backwards, strafe left, strafe right), crouch, jump, rotate camera (left, right, up, down), reload weapons, and switch weapons?

How do you know that the lag isn't inherant of needing multiple datapoints to identify motion and (therfore) always being several camera-frames behind the user's motion? How do you know they will be able to solve the glitch problems? How do you know that Milo wasn't entirely scripted, and you could tell him to "Go to hell" and he would gladly continue along his script?

You seem completely unwilling to consider any possiblity except that everything that was shown was entirely possible and will be better than you could possibly imagine ... Which is unrealistic and is setting yourself up for disapointment.

You sir, completely misread everything I had posted her. You also fail to see the obviouise. You first question (how do you move forward, backwards, strafe left. etc.) has an obviouse answer, you actually perform those actions. you want to straft left, move left, you wanna jump, jump, you wanna turn around, twist your body. you wanna reload your weapon, act like you are reloading a gun, you wanna switch weapons, just say so!

The lag you speak on probably does need several data points, but as the software develops, they should find a way to more efficiantly pick those points, thus resulting in less lag. Also, the 3D feature helps reduce lag, since it is able to pick up more points. Also, nobody said MILO wasn't "scripted" he isn't in a sense, but as will all programs, he has his limitations. He "learns" from the person playing the game, and adapts to what he knows. Even if it's not your cup of tea, it's very impressive software.

How can that actually work though ...

I've got a 2 meter by 2 meter playing area and I want to strafe along a 10 meter wall, run 20 meters forward while shooting at a person that is in a tower that is 40 Meters in the air. When I get to the tower I want to turn around the corner while maintaining an ability to see what is in front of me (what is on the screen) while I turn.

Your idea has me taking a couple of steps and running into a wall, running forward through my screen while pointing at the corner of my room pretending that there is a soldier up there, and then turning and looking at the other wall to see what is in front of me ...

Well.....

You walk in place, strafing sideways (this works in real life, just like walking in real life). When you want to run forward and shoot the guy, you run forward, and aim your fake rifle (with the crosshairs) in the air, and pull the trigger....Suprisingly, you can do this without moving more than a few CM from your center, believe it or not. If you want to turn, then turn your body 45*, while continuing to look at the screen.

I mean, if EA Sports Active can have you do stuff like that and Wii Fit can (with the balance board), then you can do it with a camera that's mapped your legs.

On the other end, you could always use a 'tilt forward' aspect - to where your torso acts as the joypad movements of forward, back, and strafes, while your head acts as the right thumbstick.

It's feasable. You just have to understand how it works

spot on.

 



Past Avatar picture!!!

Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

mrstickball on 05 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:
mrstickball said:

Well.....

You walk in place, strafing sideways (this works in real life, just like walking in real life). When you want to run forward and shoot the guy, you run forward, and aim your fake rifle (with the crosshairs) in the air, and pull the trigger....Suprisingly, you can do this without moving more than a few CM from your center, believe it or not. If you want to turn, then turn your body 45*, while continuing to look at the screen.

I mean, if EA Sports Active can have you do stuff like that and Wii Fit can (with the balance board), then you can do it with a camera that's mapped your legs.

On the other end, you could always use a 'tilt forward' aspect - to where your torso acts as the joypad movements of forward, back, and strafes, while your head acts as the right thumbstick.

It's feasable. You just have to understand how it works


There are probably (several) ways you could get more complicated games to work with NATAL if you tried, but most of what I can think of don't seem any simpler, more intuitive, or more expressive than what is currently available they're just different ... The obvious one (to me) was holding your hand out with your thumb in the air and if you rotate you use motions from the wrist to represent rotations and motions from the arm to represent movement. This doesn't seem any more intuitive to what is available currently, and can be duplicated with the Wiimote using Wii MotionPlus (completely) without the need for a nunchuck.

Are there more intuitive controls out there? Sure. Are they providing a more immersive experience? No. That's what NATAL + a smart 360 development team can do.

Imagine this kind of game....A 'First Person Slayer' or FPS

Lets say a development company decides to make a Dynasty Warrior-esque game from the first person view based off of the movie Braveheart. Your in the group of warriors with William Wallace to liberate scotland from the English.

The controls are:

Walking moves your character foward/backwards, along with running. Turning your head moves your PoV based on telemetry from the NATAL unit. Sword/Axe/Speak commands are entirely based on traditional telemetry (move your hand to use the sword with various wielding styles required for 2-handed and single handed weapons).

Intuitive? No. Only a few commands. Immersive? Most likely. Running based on telemetry has been done for decades in games...Look at Track & Field from the 80's. Running and walking is do-able with a camera.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Khuutra on 05 June 2009

mrstickball, I think a good argument can be made that being immersive requires being at least somewhat intuitive, especially for such natural actions as, well, walking or running.



Tyrannical on 05 June 2009
bardicverse said:
ironman said:

 You first question (how do you move forward, backwards, strafe left. etc.) has an obviouse answer, you actually perform those actions. you want to straft left, move left, you wanna jump, jump, you wanna turn around, twist your body. you wanna reload your weapon, act like you are reloading a gun, you wanna switch weapons, just say so! 

 

Ah, glad someone finally is attempting to address this question. My problem with this is, how does the system know you want to turn  and stay that way? Eventually you'll have to look at the screen. Virtual Reality addressed this concept with a headset/goggles that served as the monitor. There's a lot more questions, but we'll start there.

 

Or the other problem with voice recognition.

Or, "oh my god!, that's so cheap. How did he kill me? Arrrrgh. What the hell, I shot him, why won't he die?



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire