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Forums - Gaming - Wii Motion Plus > Sony Purple Wand > Natal

dahuman on 03 June 2009
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
Stage, only to non tech savvy people would it seem that impressive, voice is done by software, any camera can scan full body, the difference is the tech in natal is high frame rate capture, not quiet as good as slow cam, but enough to capture general human movements fast enough with good precision at a higher resolution. all it is, is a pretty decent camera with a mic attached to it, rest is all software driven.


It doesn't matter dude. That Milo game was only the beginning of a new era in HD motion sensing games.

and what I'm trying to tell you is that it's just a more advanced version of the PSEye, don't hype it up only to fall disappointed soon, it's not worth it, better to keep it low.

The PS eye needed a wii-mote looking sensor just to get the job done. Try this on for size...Natal can scan all four limbs properly in game. This means you can create more variety and innovation than the wii and Sony combined.

I see nothing but disasters for future devs, and I'm usually right.

The two virtual demonstations were amazing. The video package with multiple styles and phases was even more promising. Believe what you will. I cannot wait.

I'm just telling you that you will be waiting for a long time, I never said the Natal was bad, I'm just trying to explain to people what it is and don't blow your head off with it. I can see adventure games with it, only instead of typing like you'd do in the old days, the scripts are now spoken, same idea with RPGs, I hope I don't see sports games with too much movement on it, people will get hurt really bad with fast drastic movements if they are not careful.



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dahuman on 03 June 2009
nightsurge said:
ssj12 said:
nightsurge said:
ssj12 said:
nightsurge said:
Hmmmmm... considering that Sony's controller does not allow a character to move whatsoever, and can only be used if you have or buy a PS Eye as well, and it only maps one single point of movement, it is in last place.

Natal can at least track your entire body, or multiple bodies, and interpret your voice or face for simple commands.

The WMP is definitely the current leader. I think Natal is targeting a different audience, though. If you paid attention to the conference, Natal is all about targeting the 60% of households that still do not have a games console. It is about making the games so incredibly fun and intuitive that even people who won't go near the Wii will give it a try. The Wii relies on a controller and buttons. Some people still find using the controller a difficult/confusing/intimidating task and are turned off by it. Trust me, I've seen people even suck at Wii type games and if you think these kinds of people don't exist, you are ignorant.

So, in reality for the current market WMP is the leader. For the new market, there will be 2 leaders. The Wii taking the ones who can and will use a controller, Natal taking those that still haven't gotten into gaming because of the roadblock that is the controller to them. Sony's attempt will be last because it can't even match the Wii since there is nothing on it that enables you to move your character, it requires the use of the dated tech that is the PS Eye, and only tracks one point (Wii tracks 2 points, Natal tracks whole body).

wow.. do you even know the tech in the PS Eye? The Natal is more advanced but the PS Eye can do everything the Natal can do just not in as grand of a scale which is why it needs something like Sony's wand.

I will straight up say the Natal vs PS Eye the Natal is a clear winner by a mile but if its PS Eye + Sony's wand then Natal is screwed.

Nope.  The PS Eye can not handle tracking more than simple color changes in 2D space.  The Wand allows them to track one point in 3D space.

Natal can track your entire body and even multiple bodies, plus understand your voice and recognize your face, all in 3D space.  The only advantage the Sony motion controls has is the buttons, but again, as I explained, Natal is not meant to target the same people who already enjoy the Wii for it's motion controls with joystick and buttons.

sigh.. last post... dahuman understands this just as well as I.. Sony's tech isn't low grade. It uses the same tech as their current controllers plus more. I am going to end posting here because this is becoming worthless restating the same thing over and over again. Dahuman is here so he can handle that.

Lol, neither you nor dahuman knows what they are talking about.  See the post above yours.  The Sony controller does not allow you to move your character around in more than a localized space.  And I never said the tech was low grade, I merely told you exactly how the tech in the PS Eye works.  It tracks color changes in 2D space.  This new controller is simply a Wii-Mote without the nunchuck so you can do all the shooting type games and get 1:1 accuracy, but can't move any characters.  It also still only tracks that one spot in 3D space and anything else would be 2D space tracking.  The Wii tracks 2 points in 3D space, Natal tracks bodies, limbs, faces, hands, feet, torsos, etc.

I'm not trying to downplay Sony's tech, I'm just stating the actual situation here instead of trying to make it sound greater than it is.

huh what? why did you bring me into this? lol. I know exactly what Natal does, I'm just trying to explain to people that it's not something that's revolutionary, it's an evolution at best, and devs will be in hell for awhile trying to figure this thing out properly.



Thechalkblock on 03 June 2009

I agree.



S.T.A.G.E. on 03 June 2009
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
Stage, only to non tech savvy people would it seem that impressive, voice is done by software, any camera can scan full body, the difference is the tech in natal is high frame rate capture, not quiet as good as slow cam, but enough to capture general human movements fast enough with good precision at a higher resolution. all it is, is a pretty decent camera with a mic attached to it, rest is all software driven.


It doesn't matter dude. That Milo game was only the beginning of a new era in HD motion sensing games.

and what I'm trying to tell you is that it's just a more advanced version of the PSEye, don't hype it up only to fall disappointed soon, it's not worth it, better to keep it low.

The PS eye needed a wii-mote looking sensor just to get the job done. Try this on for size...Natal can scan all four limbs properly in game. This means you can create more variety and innovation than the wii and Sony combined.

I see nothing but disasters for future devs, and I'm usually right.

The two virtual demonstations were amazing. The video package with multiple styles and phases was even more promising. Believe what you will. I cannot wait.

I'm just telling you that you will be waiting for a long time, I never said the Natal was bad, I'm just trying to explain to people what it is and don't blow your head off with it. I can see adventure games with it, only instead of typing like you'd do in the old days, the scripts are now spoken, same idea with RPGs, I hope I don't see sports games with too much movement on it, people will get hurt really bad with fast drastic movements if they are not careful.

Natal would be perfect with a game like Heavy Rain. Think about it for a second and get back to me.



nightsurge on 03 June 2009
dahuman said:
Stage, only to non tech savvy people would it seem that impressive, voice is done by software, any camera can scan full body, the difference is the tech in natal is high frame rate capture, not quiet as good as slow cam, but enough to capture general human movements fast enough with good precision at a higher resolution. all it is, is a pretty decent camera with a mic attached to it, rest is all software driven.

I'd like to correct this misinformed post.

Natal is not "just a decent camera and a mic."

Natal's camera does not just capture at a high rate, it has a second lens for tracking IR pulses so that it can track 3D movements and not just 2D stuff.  Also, you make it sound like the software has to be added to the 360 or something, but all the software needed for voice and interpretting the data received from camera is handled internally within Natal.  The final result is then sent to the 360 to be displayed/processed/manipulated/etc.

Any digital camera has software built in.  You seem to be thinking that electronics these days work without internal software?

Obviously the software and hardware inside Natal is excellent and will continue to improve.  Oh and don't get me wrong, I know this isn't really all that innovative.  I was playing with full body motion controlled gaming nearly 8 years ago at a Co-Si Science Center.  It was not as advanced as Natal, and only could play volleyball, but I'm just saying that I realize this idea is not exactly new.



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dahuman on 03 June 2009
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
dahuman said:
Stage, only to non tech savvy people would it seem that impressive, voice is done by software, any camera can scan full body, the difference is the tech in natal is high frame rate capture, not quiet as good as slow cam, but enough to capture general human movements fast enough with good precision at a higher resolution. all it is, is a pretty decent camera with a mic attached to it, rest is all software driven.


It doesn't matter dude. That Milo game was only the beginning of a new era in HD motion sensing games.

and what I'm trying to tell you is that it's just a more advanced version of the PSEye, don't hype it up only to fall disappointed soon, it's not worth it, better to keep it low.

The PS eye needed a wii-mote looking sensor just to get the job done. Try this on for size...Natal can scan all four limbs properly in game. This means you can create more variety and innovation than the wii and Sony combined.

I see nothing but disasters for future devs, and I'm usually right.

The two virtual demonstations were amazing. The video package with multiple styles and phases was even more promising. Believe what you will. I cannot wait.

I'm just telling you that you will be waiting for a long time, I never said the Natal was bad, I'm just trying to explain to people what it is and don't blow your head off with it. I can see adventure games with it, only instead of typing like you'd do in the old days, the scripts are now spoken, same idea with RPGs, I hope I don't see sports games with too much movement on it, people will get hurt really bad with fast drastic movements if they are not careful.

Natal would be perfect with a game like Heavy Rain. Think about it for a second and get back to me.

Heavy Rain isn't released yet so I wouldn't know unless I have access to the product, if you still remember this when it's released, we can discuss it then.



dahuman on 03 June 2009
nightsurge said:
dahuman said:
Stage, only to non tech savvy people would it seem that impressive, voice is done by software, any camera can scan full body, the difference is the tech in natal is high frame rate capture, not quiet as good as slow cam, but enough to capture general human movements fast enough with good precision at a higher resolution. all it is, is a pretty decent camera with a mic attached to it, rest is all software driven.

I'd like to correct this misinformed post.

Natal is not "just a decent camera and a mic."

Natal's camera does not just capture at a high rate, it has a second lens for tracking IR pulses so that it can track 3D movements and not just 2D stuff.  Also, you make it sound like the software has to be added to the 360 or something, but all the software needed for voice and interpretting the data received from camera is handled internally within Natal.  The final result is then sent to the 360 to be displayed/processed/manipulated/etc.

Any digital camera has software built in.  You seem to be thinking that electronics these days work without internal software?

you are thinking about firmwares, it collects data, it sends it to the host then the software, then the software decides what to do with that data, it's just a specialized I/O device, nothing more, nothing less. IR tracking is not new nor is it revolutionary.



nightsurge on 03 June 2009
dahuman said:
nightsurge said:
dahuman said:
Stage, only to non tech savvy people would it seem that impressive, voice is done by software, any camera can scan full body, the difference is the tech in natal is high frame rate capture, not quiet as good as slow cam, but enough to capture general human movements fast enough with good precision at a higher resolution. all it is, is a pretty decent camera with a mic attached to it, rest is all software driven.

I'd like to correct this misinformed post.

Natal is not "just a decent camera and a mic."

Natal's camera does not just capture at a high rate, it has a second lens for tracking IR pulses so that it can track 3D movements and not just 2D stuff.  Also, you make it sound like the software has to be added to the 360 or something, but all the software needed for voice and interpretting the data received from camera is handled internally within Natal.  The final result is then sent to the 360 to be displayed/processed/manipulated/etc.

Any digital camera has software built in.  You seem to be thinking that electronics these days work without internal software?

you are thinking about firmwares, it collects data, it sends it to the host then the software, then the software decides what to do with that data, it's just a specialized I/O device, nothing more, nothing less. IR tracking is not new nor is it revolutionary.

Yes, firmware is software.  Firmware can control the hardware as well as decide how to handle the data.  No software is needed on the Xbox 360 to make this work.  I'm sure there will be an update obviously since this is meant to interact with the 360 dashboard and stuff like that, but if all you wanted was to play a game you wouldn't need the 360 OS software to do what Natal can do.  Also, you started replying before my edited post

EDIT:  I think I'm being a bit unclear.  Obviously you need software to be used with Natal (a game or something), I'm just saying that the actual I/O device itself can receive and interpret the data before sending it to the software which then handles the data.

I'm a programmer so I know how an input device works with software, but what I'm trying to say is that while your program interprets what the mouse "click" does, for example, it does not interpret what the "click" is.  The "click" is handled by the mouse, then the program processes where it took place and what action to do as a result of that.  The same way Natal can determine what the motion, the voice command, etc. is, and the software is merely needed to determine what to do with that data.  So I guess yes you are right in your statement that it is relient on software, I just felt you were trying to say that this device itself did nothing more than capture data, and did no processing of it's own.



dahuman on 03 June 2009
nightsurge said:
dahuman said:
nightsurge said:
dahuman said:
Stage, only to non tech savvy people would it seem that impressive, voice is done by software, any camera can scan full body, the difference is the tech in natal is high frame rate capture, not quiet as good as slow cam, but enough to capture general human movements fast enough with good precision at a higher resolution. all it is, is a pretty decent camera with a mic attached to it, rest is all software driven.

I'd like to correct this misinformed post.

Natal is not "just a decent camera and a mic."

Natal's camera does not just capture at a high rate, it has a second lens for tracking IR pulses so that it can track 3D movements and not just 2D stuff.  Also, you make it sound like the software has to be added to the 360 or something, but all the software needed for voice and interpretting the data received from camera is handled internally within Natal.  The final result is then sent to the 360 to be displayed/processed/manipulated/etc.

Any digital camera has software built in.  You seem to be thinking that electronics these days work without internal software?

you are thinking about firmwares, it collects data, it sends it to the host then the software, then the software decides what to do with that data, it's just a specialized I/O device, nothing more, nothing less. IR tracking is not new nor is it revolutionary.

Yes, firmware is software.  Firmware can control the hardware as well as decide how to handle the data.  No software is needed on the Xbox 360 to make this work.  Also, you started replying before my edited post

and you already have a dev kit that confirms this right? that all the voice commands doesn't require any software on the 360 part and it's going to magically work because it's all coded into a firmware, that all the 3D data it collects doesn't need any type of interpretation and everything is going to work like magic? can I smack you upside the head now?



dahuman on 03 June 2009

sigh, seriously though, it's up to the devs, it's going to take time, I'm just being realistic here. there is no magic in the game dev world.