By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming - Malstrom: NATAL (or as he calls it, the MS Phatom will never be released)

1337 Gamer on 03 June 2009

i wanna see a good FPS playable on NATAL then if employed correctly would show that M$ has gone about controls the right way.



Long Live SHIO!

Around the Network
liquidninja on 03 June 2009

I'm just thinking this will be vaporware based on MS's history for it. (I'd be cool to call this stuff before everyone else finds out like they did with Vista and surface)

However, I also know MS isn't above throwing away money. I really don't know how they feel towards the Wii. Maybe if the Wii gets popular enough it could challenge the Home PC space like the Iphone is doing. Knowing that the Wii is getting all this game software with practical uses it's not as hard to believe anymore. So maybe they want to do something to slow that down.

Of course Nintendo doesn't seem to care about the Home PC space like Sony does so I don't really see that happening. If anything Apple TV would do that.



selnor on 03 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:
selnor said:
HappySqurriel said:

Right now I think it would be amazingly risky for any third party publisher to devote any real support to the NATAL because the XBox 360's userbase has demonstrated no interest in similar concepts (after all, days ago they would often say "If motion controls become standard on next generation consoles I'm quitting gaming!"), it's a (potentially expensive) add on device that will be released late in a console's life, its not likely that there will be a lot of support from the manufacturer being that the majority of their games (and almost all of their major games) will be designed around their existing control system, and customers will continue to expect similar quality in graphics from games released on the XBox 360 which will push development costs much higher.

This is the point though.

People on here are looking at it from Hardcore gamers perspective. M$ had plenty of hardcore games on show at E3. They havent forgotten about those.

But the casuals out there ( I dont mean Hardcore Wii fans which account for about 10% of Wii owners most probably ) I refer to the 90% who are mums, young kids, families who get up to play bowling every week. These people are REALLY where M$ are targeting this. My wife has wanted a Wii for about 6 months. She saw this and said get this forget the Wii. People I work with saw it on TV and absolutely love it. They own only Wii's. They dont own Galaxy or Twilight Princess. They have games like Wii sports, Wii play. The casuals out there who want mess around games to waggle to. IGN state Natal worked on their playthrough off a normal everyday 360. Not a Devkit 360. Meaning this tech is real and basically finished. IGN loved it. Burnout was running on it. So EA must already be working with it. IGN further state that plenty of games have been in development for awhile and we will see them very soon. Nintendo and Sony should not underestimate M$ pushing this. They will market this with probably double the money Halo 3 had. Watch this space.

... and at the current rate Nintendo will have a 100,000,000+ install base built off of several games which were highly successful with these gamers, and will have every third party in the world releasing several mature products which target these gamers all before a single NATAL is released to the public.

Basically, I can't see NATAL being successful beyond appealing to people who already have an XBox 360 in their house because (by the time it releases) the Wii will have 10+ games that are developed by people with more experience appealing to these gamers that is released for every NATAL game that is released.

But again you miss the point. Wii is not motion control. It's preset augmentation. Bowling for 360 would actually take skill, not lining up with the d-pad whilst sitting on the sofa and then flicking your wrist 4 inches and hitting a strike 9 times out of 10.

People with tech this advanced will welcome it with open arms. I know loads of people who want this already. Some who already saw it and phoned me, and others Ive showed it to. My wife no longer wants a wii, her words were " Whats the point, this thingy is much more diverse and real." I even know people who want it for the Minority Report dashboard stuff. Your looking at it as if it's the same as the wii, when in fact it's something many didnt expect to see for another 10 years. ( My boss at work said this sort of thing she thought was gonna be like 2020. )

This is turning on and off by voice, this is navigation by hand movement, this is gaming based on FULL body motion. No preset button commands or ANIMATIONS. The ANIMATIONS are your own.



HappySqurriel on 03 June 2009
selnor said:
HappySqurriel said:
selnor said:
HappySqurriel said:

Right now I think it would be amazingly risky for any third party publisher to devote any real support to the NATAL because the XBox 360's userbase has demonstrated no interest in similar concepts (after all, days ago they would often say "If motion controls become standard on next generation consoles I'm quitting gaming!"), it's a (potentially expensive) add on device that will be released late in a console's life, its not likely that there will be a lot of support from the manufacturer being that the majority of their games (and almost all of their major games) will be designed around their existing control system, and customers will continue to expect similar quality in graphics from games released on the XBox 360 which will push development costs much higher.

This is the point though.

People on here are looking at it from Hardcore gamers perspective. M$ had plenty of hardcore games on show at E3. They havent forgotten about those.

But the casuals out there ( I dont mean Hardcore Wii fans which account for about 10% of Wii owners most probably ) I refer to the 90% who are mums, young kids, families who get up to play bowling every week. These people are REALLY where M$ are targeting this. My wife has wanted a Wii for about 6 months. She saw this and said get this forget the Wii. People I work with saw it on TV and absolutely love it. They own only Wii's. They dont own Galaxy or Twilight Princess. They have games like Wii sports, Wii play. The casuals out there who want mess around games to waggle to. IGN state Natal worked on their playthrough off a normal everyday 360. Not a Devkit 360. Meaning this tech is real and basically finished. IGN loved it. Burnout was running on it. So EA must already be working with it. IGN further state that plenty of games have been in development for awhile and we will see them very soon. Nintendo and Sony should not underestimate M$ pushing this. They will market this with probably double the money Halo 3 had. Watch this space.

... and at the current rate Nintendo will have a 100,000,000+ install base built off of several games which were highly successful with these gamers, and will have every third party in the world releasing several mature products which target these gamers all before a single NATAL is released to the public.

Basically, I can't see NATAL being successful beyond appealing to people who already have an XBox 360 in their house because (by the time it releases) the Wii will have 10+ games that are developed by people with more experience appealing to these gamers that is released for every NATAL game that is released.

But again you miss the point. Wii is not motion control. It's preset augmentation. Bowling for 360 would actually take skill, not lining up with the d-pad whilst sitting on the sofa and then flicking your wrist 4 inches and hitting a strike 9 times out of 10.

People with tech this advanced will welcome it with open arms. I know loads of people who want this already. Some who already saw it and phoned me, and others Ive showed it to. My wife no longer wants a wii, her words were " Whats the point, this thingy is much more diverse and real." I even know people who want it for the Minority Report dashboard stuff. Your looking at it as if it's the same as the wii, when in fact it's something many didnt expect to see for another 10 years. ( My boss at work said this sort of thing she thought was gonna be like 2020. )

This is turning on and off by voice, this is navigation by hand movement, this is gaming based on FULL body motion. No preset button commands or ANIMATIONS. The ANIMATIONS are your own.

Exactly how can the NATAL improve Bowling over what's possible with Wii MotionPlus?

The difference between a gutter ball and a strike in bowling in real life is a subtile over/under rotation at the wrist (or a slight misalignment of the arm) upon releasing the ball, which is a timeframe of less than 1/30th of a second ... So how exactly is a camera going to pick up this small mistake from across the room in a timeframe that is shorter than a frame?



selnor on 03 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:
selnor said:
HappySqurriel said:
selnor said:
HappySqurriel said:

Right now I think it would be amazingly risky for any third party publisher to devote any real support to the NATAL because the XBox 360's userbase has demonstrated no interest in similar concepts (after all, days ago they would often say "If motion controls become standard on next generation consoles I'm quitting gaming!"), it's a (potentially expensive) add on device that will be released late in a console's life, its not likely that there will be a lot of support from the manufacturer being that the majority of their games (and almost all of their major games) will be designed around their existing control system, and customers will continue to expect similar quality in graphics from games released on the XBox 360 which will push development costs much higher.

This is the point though.

People on here are looking at it from Hardcore gamers perspective. M$ had plenty of hardcore games on show at E3. They havent forgotten about those.

But the casuals out there ( I dont mean Hardcore Wii fans which account for about 10% of Wii owners most probably ) I refer to the 90% who are mums, young kids, families who get up to play bowling every week. These people are REALLY where M$ are targeting this. My wife has wanted a Wii for about 6 months. She saw this and said get this forget the Wii. People I work with saw it on TV and absolutely love it. They own only Wii's. They dont own Galaxy or Twilight Princess. They have games like Wii sports, Wii play. The casuals out there who want mess around games to waggle to. IGN state Natal worked on their playthrough off a normal everyday 360. Not a Devkit 360. Meaning this tech is real and basically finished. IGN loved it. Burnout was running on it. So EA must already be working with it. IGN further state that plenty of games have been in development for awhile and we will see them very soon. Nintendo and Sony should not underestimate M$ pushing this. They will market this with probably double the money Halo 3 had. Watch this space.

... and at the current rate Nintendo will have a 100,000,000+ install base built off of several games which were highly successful with these gamers, and will have every third party in the world releasing several mature products which target these gamers all before a single NATAL is released to the public.

Basically, I can't see NATAL being successful beyond appealing to people who already have an XBox 360 in their house because (by the time it releases) the Wii will have 10+ games that are developed by people with more experience appealing to these gamers that is released for every NATAL game that is released.

But again you miss the point. Wii is not motion control. It's preset augmentation. Bowling for 360 would actually take skill, not lining up with the d-pad whilst sitting on the sofa and then flicking your wrist 4 inches and hitting a strike 9 times out of 10.

People with tech this advanced will welcome it with open arms. I know loads of people who want this already. Some who already saw it and phoned me, and others Ive showed it to. My wife no longer wants a wii, her words were " Whats the point, this thingy is much more diverse and real." I even know people who want it for the Minority Report dashboard stuff. Your looking at it as if it's the same as the wii, when in fact it's something many didnt expect to see for another 10 years. ( My boss at work said this sort of thing she thought was gonna be like 2020. )

This is turning on and off by voice, this is navigation by hand movement, this is gaming based on FULL body motion. No preset button commands or ANIMATIONS. The ANIMATIONS are your own.

Exactly how can the NATAL improve Bowling over what's possible with Wii MotionPlus?

The difference between a gutter ball and a strike in bowling in real life is a subtile over/under rotation at the wrist (or a slight misalignment of the arm) upon releasing the ball, which is a timeframe of less than 1/30th of a second ... So how exactly is a camera going to pick up this small mistake from across the room in a timeframe that is shorter than a frame?


Have you seen nothing of Natal?????

It can pick up a movement as intricate as pinching. I can sit on the sofa with my wii and beat almost anyone at bowling barely moving 4 inches with my wrist. Natal will be able to track weight of swing, your standing alignement is done by where your feet are actually standing and again the spinning on wii is done in a time window preset. Go read some reviews of playthroughs with Natal from IGN or Eurogamer. These guys will tell you it's intracasies. It's fine if you want to stay with wii. But it's not actually motion control. It's still a command thats been input by the dev.

Motion control is NO animation done by the devs no preset coding for controls. ANIMATION is fully done by you, and a punch for instance is exactly replicate at the height and length and force of your arm. Whereas this is not possible on Wii, it has to be preset.



Around the Network
HappySqurriel on 03 June 2009
selnor said:

Have you seen nothing of Natal?????

It can pick up a movement as intricate as pinching. I can sit on the sofa with my wii and beat almost anyone at bowling barely moving 4 inches with my wrist. Natal will be able to track weight of swing, your standing alignement is done by where your feet are actually standing and again the spinning on wii is done in a time window preset. Go read some reviews of playthroughs with Natal from IGN or Eurogamer. These guys will tell you it's intracasies. It's fine if you want to stay with wii. But it's not actually motion control. It's still a command thats been input by the dev.

Motion control is NO animation done by the devs no preset coding for controls. ANIMATION is fully done by you, and a punch for instance is exactly replicate at the height and length and force of your arm. Whereas this is not possible on Wii, it has to be preset.


I think you missed the point ...

In order to detect motion accurately without a lot of false-positives or false-negatives (and without noise) you need multiple data-points to generate a trend from. If the NATAL runs at 30fps how sensitive can it be for detecting subtile motions? It will (potentially) work really well if you're trying to translate an absolute position to the screen, but motion will not work as well as the Wii; and in particular the Wii MotionPlus.



Zucas on 03 June 2009

I think it'll be released... just not in a timely or cost effective fashion.



Mr Khan on 03 June 2009

I think Malstrom's right, but he definitely went a little too far in the anti-Microsoft commentary (beyond what was necessary to make his point).

 

Though i do think it'll probably be released, i also think that it will wind up severely feature-stripped.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Squilliam on 04 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:


I think you missed the point ...

In order to detect motion accurately without a lot of false-positives or false-negatives (and without noise) you need multiple data-points to generate a trend from. If the NATAL runs at 30fps how sensitive can it be for detecting subtile motions? It will (potentially) work really well if you're trying to translate an absolute position to the screen, but motion will not work as well as the Wii; and in particular the Wii MotionPlus.

It runs at 60FPS from what I recall. It also has video compression built into the unit so as to not saturate the USB connection from the Natal camera to the Xbox 360 as its essentially real time.



Tease.

selnor on 04 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:
selnor said:

Have you seen nothing of Natal?????

It can pick up a movement as intricate as pinching. I can sit on the sofa with my wii and beat almost anyone at bowling barely moving 4 inches with my wrist. Natal will be able to track weight of swing, your standing alignement is done by where your feet are actually standing and again the spinning on wii is done in a time window preset. Go read some reviews of playthroughs with Natal from IGN or Eurogamer. These guys will tell you it's intracasies. It's fine if you want to stay with wii. But it's not actually motion control. It's still a command thats been input by the dev.

Motion control is NO animation done by the devs no preset coding for controls. ANIMATION is fully done by you, and a punch for instance is exactly replicate at the height and length and force of your arm. Whereas this is not possible on Wii, it has to be preset.


I think you missed the point ...

In order to detect motion accurately without a lot of false-positives or false-negatives (and without noise) you need multiple data-points to generate a trend from. If the NATAL runs at 30fps how sensitive can it be for detecting subtile motions? It will (potentially) work really well if you're trying to translate an absolute position to the screen, but motion will not work as well as the Wii; and in particular the Wii MotionPlus.

They said it runs 60 fps. And I think you should read Eurogamers hands on or any other hands on for that matter. motion control with this works nigh on perfect. Oh and Wii is not full body motion control. In fact it's pre set movements. Character animations are preset etc. Certainly for everything except the hand and wrist.