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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Malstrom: NATAL (or as he calls it, the MS Phatom will never be released)

Squilliam said:
HappySqurriel said:


I think you missed the point ...

In order to detect motion accurately without a lot of false-positives or false-negatives (and without noise) you need multiple data-points to generate a trend from. If the NATAL runs at 30fps how sensitive can it be for detecting subtile motions? It will (potentially) work really well if you're trying to translate an absolute position to the screen, but motion will not work as well as the Wii; and in particular the Wii MotionPlus.

It runs at 60FPS from what I recall. It also has video compression built into the unit so as to not saturate the USB connection from the Natal camera to the Xbox 360 as its essentially real time.

Do we know something about the angular resolution of the processed 3d map? Because it's critical if the sampling rate is only 60 hz.

Oh, and @Selnor: what do you mean with "preset motion controls"?



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

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selnor said:
HappySqurriel said:
selnor said:

Have you seen nothing of Natal?????

It can pick up a movement as intricate as pinching. I can sit on the sofa with my wii and beat almost anyone at bowling barely moving 4 inches with my wrist. Natal will be able to track weight of swing, your standing alignement is done by where your feet are actually standing and again the spinning on wii is done in a time window preset. Go read some reviews of playthroughs with Natal from IGN or Eurogamer. These guys will tell you it's intracasies. It's fine if you want to stay with wii. But it's not actually motion control. It's still a command thats been input by the dev.

Motion control is NO animation done by the devs no preset coding for controls. ANIMATION is fully done by you, and a punch for instance is exactly replicate at the height and length and force of your arm. Whereas this is not possible on Wii, it has to be preset.


I think you missed the point ...

In order to detect motion accurately without a lot of false-positives or false-negatives (and without noise) you need multiple data-points to generate a trend from. If the NATAL runs at 30fps how sensitive can it be for detecting subtile motions? It will (potentially) work really well if you're trying to translate an absolute position to the screen, but motion will not work as well as the Wii; and in particular the Wii MotionPlus.

They said it runs 60 fps. And I think you should read Eurogamers hands on or any other hands on for that matter. motion control with this works nigh on perfect. Oh and Wii is not full body motion control. In fact it's pre set movements. Character animations are preset etc. Certainly for everything except the hand and wrist.

I see where the misunderstanding came from, then: 60 samples/ second, so, for Shannon-Nyquist, 30Hz maximum frequency detectable.

If the camera is interlaced, things worsen, though. I worked on a project about optical flow for an exam, and interlaced cameras forced to choose amongst several trade-offs, but all involving halved vertical space resolution (the other choices depended on computational power and memory for framebuffers available, scarce when the original project started, so on older machines maximum frequency was halved too). These trade-offs come from Nyquist-Shannon too, so also technologies not using optical flow are affected.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


selnor said:
LOL. Developers were given fully working dev kits for it at E3. So they can now make games for it. And the press here in UK and M$ exec on TV said Autumn release. Although this could slip, I doubt it. It's basically all finished. Especially since Milo worked without any hitches according to reports.

So they start developing now (maybe not even now, after summer is more likely), when are games ready? Not next Xmas, not the successive one, most probably, for simpler project maybe in time for Xmas 2011. For biggest ones, in time for XB720, if MS has a 7-years plan for XB360.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


@Alby

True about Shannon-Nyquist, but the maximum detectable frequency is not that important a parameter, as the Fourier transform of human body movement will hardly be significative over 30Hz (we're talking about pattern recognition here, right?)



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

Alby_da_Wolf said:
selnor said:
HappySqurriel said:
selnor said:

Have you seen nothing of Natal?????

It can pick up a movement as intricate as pinching. I can sit on the sofa with my wii and beat almost anyone at bowling barely moving 4 inches with my wrist. Natal will be able to track weight of swing, your standing alignement is done by where your feet are actually standing and again the spinning on wii is done in a time window preset. Go read some reviews of playthroughs with Natal from IGN or Eurogamer. These guys will tell you it's intracasies. It's fine if you want to stay with wii. But it's not actually motion control. It's still a command thats been input by the dev.

Motion control is NO animation done by the devs no preset coding for controls. ANIMATION is fully done by you, and a punch for instance is exactly replicate at the height and length and force of your arm. Whereas this is not possible on Wii, it has to be preset.


I think you missed the point ...

In order to detect motion accurately without a lot of false-positives or false-negatives (and without noise) you need multiple data-points to generate a trend from. If the NATAL runs at 30fps how sensitive can it be for detecting subtile motions? It will (potentially) work really well if you're trying to translate an absolute position to the screen, but motion will not work as well as the Wii; and in particular the Wii MotionPlus.

They said it runs 60 fps. And I think you should read Eurogamers hands on or any other hands on for that matter. motion control with this works nigh on perfect. Oh and Wii is not full body motion control. In fact it's pre set movements. Character animations are preset etc. Certainly for everything except the hand and wrist.

I see where the misunderstanding came from, then: 60 samples/ second, so, for Shannon-Nyquist, 30Hz maximum frequency detectable.

If the camera is interlaced, things worsen, though. I worked on a project about optical flow for an exam, and interlaced cameras forced to choose amongst several trade-offs, but all involving halved vertical space resolution (the other choices depended on computational power and memory for framebuffers available, scarce when the original project started, so on older machines maximum frequency was halved too). These trade-offs come from Nyquist-Shannon too, so also technologies not using optical flow are affected.

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IGN and all other media that have had hands on report that Natal is more accurate than a knife in your own hand.

Hello people, it doesnt matter how it does it, reports say it works and works very well, very accurate and had no problems from any of the playtests Ive read at Eurogamer, IGN or Gamespot. Your trying to make a hole that was never their. The tech works and from the biggest leg movement to the smallest pinch is accurate. Get over it.



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WereKitten said:

@Alby

True about Shannon-Nyquist, but the maximum detectable frequency is not that important a parameter, as the Fourier transform of human body movement will hardly be significative over 30Hz (we're talking about pattern recognition here, right?)

You must also take into account sampling in space performed by the camera, low time resolution means small objects (including fingers) can't be properly detected if moving fast, as they would look like disappearing and reappearing at a distance greater than their size in pixels. Anyhow, to avoid errors, low-pass filtering is always applied (in the transformed domain it becomes a very simple operation), both in space and time.

 



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Legend11 said:

Some of the first games that will appear for it will likely be casual in nature and I can't really see those games having very long development times.

I sense the same type of logic in your head by which 3rd parties were producing so much shovelware on wii, whether a casual or not.



selnor said:

They said it runs 60 fps. And I think you should read Eurogamers hands on or any other hands on for that matter. motion control with this works nigh on perfect. Oh and Wii is not full body motion control. In fact it's pre set movements. Character animations are preset etc. Certainly for everything except the hand and wrist.

You do know Wii Motion Plus with 1-to-1 movement is coming out in a few days, right?

And there's this thing called the analog stick to do movement. How are you going to move around an open 3D world with Natal?

If anything, it's Natal that will use more predefined movement and on-rails gaming.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

Malstrom has become prisoner of his own excessive style and now that it drifted away too much from reality, he can't escape anymore from it.
The more Wii hovers just below 50% (despite a very good 50% that will take Wii to absolute sales greater than almost monopolistic market shares in previous gens) and fails totally disrupting gaming market and crushing or marginalizing competitors (but these never were Nintendo's goals!), the more Malstrom's star risks fading. He's not scared for Wii, Wii's doing wonders even in its slowest weeks, he's worried for himself.

Edit: ZOMFG, grey nature of reality DISRUPTED Malstrom's black and white utopia dystopia whatever!!!    



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


liquidninja said:
Shadowblind said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Actually it makes sense that it wont be released, people are saying $200 for the camera, that won't have any market penetration at that price, by the time it gets to a price cheap nough to hit the market, it'll be the next generation.


Wrong... Can't quite remember the link to it, but right now using a certain kind of alloy chip for the camera costs around $60. The article stated that in all likelihood MS will wait at least until next year for the creation of the CMOS chipset for the camera which should place their manufacturing value around $15.


Don't ask for a link, but it was posted on this site. Search it out if you want.

You know, I did a search and the only thing that showed up was your post.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_en-USUS291US310&q=site:www.vgchartz.com+CMOS+natal&btnG=Search

Uh? I get over 45000 results...



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!