And one should note that Denmark, as per the article, has a lot of free-market business practices, despite the blustering income tax rate.
Back from the dead, I'm afraid.
And one should note that Denmark, as per the article, has a lot of free-market business practices, despite the blustering income tax rate.
Back from the dead, I'm afraid.
| mrstickball said: And one should note that Denmark, as per the article, has a lot of free-market business practices, despite the blustering income tax rate. |
Oh yeah. Unlike most countries they decided "We want this... how can we make it work for our country."
Rather then just voting in whatever the people want and trying to work around it. Which is the downfall of democracies in general.

Makepeacefox said:
I noticed 2 things which confused me in your post: 1) You mention crime being low where there's lots of work but I'm sure that's the case in countries with welfare as well, and in areas with poor employment there IS crime - illegal border crossing! 2) Countries with no welfare = good, countries with welfare = bad, but Mexicans will risk their life to travel OUT of the country with no welfare?!
Further to the second point - why would anyone want to put unemployed people in such a harsh situation that the only way out of their problems is to risk their life, commit crime, and be sundered from their family?
|
Luney Tune said:
This is even more true in the rest of the developed world. It's *easier* to become whatever you want in a welfare state. The drawback is that the "reward" is marginally smaller. I prefer that. You don't. Now stop lying about the work ethic in welfare states. |
A quick google resulted in the following:
"..."
"Ah, but, we can always find something nasty in the woodpile. The US has the most unequal distribution of income of all the countries studied. Using the Gini coefficients as our measurement in America it was 0.338 in 1989 and 0.368 in 200, while in Finland on the same dates it was 0.210 and 0.247. Perhaps worth noting that this increasing inequality of income distribution is not exclusive to the US though, it appears to be a more international occurrence than that."
"Now if the equality of income distribution is something you worry about this is of course a troubling fact. It is what leads to the statement that while the US might be richer, the poor do worse, that in fact the poor in America are worse off than the poor in Europe. Which leads us to this highly informative little picture."

"Now given all the adjustments that have been made to the figures this is actually showing us something very interesting indeed. The use of PPP means that we've adjusted for price differences, by using US median income as our measuring stick we've given ourselves a view of the actual incomes, not just the relative incomes, of the poor and the rich in each country."
"How we're supposed to read this is that the USA has a very uneven income distribution, that the poorest 10% only get 39% of the median income, that the richest 10% get 210%. Compare and contrast that with the most egalitarian society amongst those studied, Finland, where the rich get 111% and the poor get 38%. Shown this undoubted fact we are therefore to don sackcloth and ashes, promise to do better and tax the heck out of everybody to rectify this appalling situation."
"But hang on a minute, that's not quite what is being shown. In the USA the poor get 39% of the US median income and in Finland (and Sweden) the poor get 38% of the US median income. It's not worth quibbling over 1% so let's take it as read that the poor in America have exactly the same standard of living as the poor in Finland (and Sweden). Which is really a rather revealing number don't you think? All those punitive tax rates, all that redistribution, that blessed egalitarianism, the flatter distribution of income, leads to a change in the living standards of the poor of precisely ... nothing."
"..."
What could (easily) be argued from the data is that, while the GINI co-efficient is "Better" in many welfare states, is that the "Poor" receive no real benefit from a welfare state all that happens is that the "Rich" are worse off and the system on the whole is worse off ...
To look at things another way ...
If you have a society where there is perfect equality, and earns a uniform wage, then there is no incentive to invest your resources (physical, emotional, intellectual or financial) towards making society better because there is no reward. On the other hand, if you have a society where there is perfect inequlity, and your wage is entirely based on arbitrary considerations (race, class, caste, or political connections), then there is no incentive to invest your resources (physical, emotional, intellectual or financial) towards making society better because there is (once again) no reward.
What society needs is a good balance of equality (an elimination of arbitrary barriers that prevent people from achieving their goals) and inequality (a reward system which benefits those people who make personal sacrifices in order to benefit society). The best way to measure whether one system was "Better" than another at achieving this would be to determine where the economic growth was the fastest, because that would mean that there was the greatest incentive for people (on the whole) to benefit society.
I have yet to see any statistics that demonstrate that over a reasonable period of time (20+ years) a welfare state can produce faster economic growth, unless the welfare state began at a much lower economic level.
Is the USA's economic system ideal? Probably not being that there is still a high number of people who drop out of highschool, choose a life of crime, or otherwise choose a path that does not encourage the benefit of society on the whole.
Is the USA's economic system one of the best in the world? If you look at long term growth trends the answer is (probably) yes.
If the US is such a welfare state why are their millions of homeless people???
| mrstickball said: Luney - What about the unemployment rate in Welfare states. It's quite a bit different to have welfare, and have much unemployment vs. less welfare, and less unemployment, no? Also, when your trying to say that things are better off in welfare states, I'd love to see some statistical evidence that proves that. Not just the whole 'Well, Denmark has lots of welfare, and it does well, so welfare states must work!' but an analysis of the actual people on welfare in such states, and compare it that way. Otherwise, your just analyzing your ideology, and not providing a real analysis. Kind of like when people say more guns cause more crime. Actual statistics prove to the contrary. |
Unemployment rates are typically higher in welfare states, that's true. Welfare makes it easier for companies to fire people, and it puts less pressure on the government to create jobs. However this really is a minor problem compared to the benefits.
Claiming that redistribution of wealth in a capitalist economy doesn't increase overall happiness is irrational. Money helps a poor man more than it helps a rich man. The question is whether or not such redistribution has any major undesirable side effects. The common complaints from the far right is that "welfare makes people lazy", and "welfare is too expensive, it will ruin the economy". However a quick glance at the UN human development index proves these claims are not true. In fact if you look at the Gini index you'll see that there's a very clear correlation between income distribution and economic wealth, the exact opposite of what the far right wants you to believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
You claim that private welfare works as well as public tax funded welfare. This is simply not true. If you look at life expectancy, infant mortality rate, murder/crime rates, and social mobility, (statistics that poverty tend to greatly affect) the US lags far behind the rest of the developed world.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prisoner_population_rate_UN_HDR_2007_2008.PNG
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/25/socialexclusion.accesstouniversity
Needy get a smaller slice of charity:
"For most Americans, "charitable giving" connotes donating their resources to help those who are less fortunate to better their situation. Yet how much of charitable giving actually goes to benefit the neediest in society? According to recent studies, much less than most people expect." http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1119/p13s01-wmgn.html
It's better to be poor in Norway than in the US:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0414/p17s02-cogn.html
| Kasz216 said: Denmark is actually doing Ok in all that. The only problem is that Denmark is an outlier... who's model is unlikely to be able to be exported to other countries. Denmark's tends to work so well because they aren't as socialistic as other europeon countries and have many US and UK labor practices. http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2007-03-06-denmark-usat_N.htm
Some info from the chart. At the time US unemployment was 4.6%. Denmarks was 4.2%, France's was 9.1% |
Denmark is an ultra liberal welfare state. With the possible exception of the Netherlands, Denmark has the most generous welfare system in the world. Denmark also has the highest income tax rates and the highest sales tax rates in the developed world.
Calling Denmark "less socialist than the rest of Europe" implying that Denmark is somehow more like the US, is absurd. Denmark is pretty much the exact opposite of a right wing libertarian dream world.
Denmark is an example how how the world should be. The US is not.
|
HappySqurriel said: http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=082806E If you have a society where there is perfect equality, and earns a uniform wage, then there is no incentive to invest your resources (physical, emotional, intellectual or financial) towards making society better because there is no reward. On the other hand, if you have a society where there is perfect inequlity, and your wage is entirely based on arbitrary considerations (race, class, caste, or political connections), then there is no incentive to invest your resources (physical, emotional, intellectual or financial) towards making society better because there is (once again) no reward. What society needs is a good balance of equality (an elimination of arbitrary barriers that prevent people from achieving their goals) and inequality (a reward system which benefits those people who make personal sacrifices in order to benefit society). The best way to measure whether one system was "Better" than another at achieving this would be to determine where the economic growth was the fastest, because that would mean that there was the greatest incentive for people (on the whole) to benefit society. I have yet to see any statistics that demonstrate that over a reasonable period of time (20+ years) a welfare state can produce faster economic growth, unless the welfare state began at a much lower economic level. |
You cannot directly compare income levels the way the author of that article does. There are too many variables that affect quality of life. For instance in the US a minimum wages worker has to spend a significant amount of his income on things like health care and education. In Finland quality health care and education is free. Thus a finnish worker can survive on a smaller income.
The only scientific way of telling in which country the poor are better off, is to compare things like life expectancy and infant mortality rates. And if you do, Finland comes out much better than the US. For instance the infant mortality rate is twice as high in the US.
As for the rest I actually agree with a lot of what you write. Except for the following:
"The best way to measure whether one system was "Better" than another at achieving this would be to determine where the economic growth was the fastest, because that would mean that there was the greatest incentive for people (on the whole) to benefit society."
You sound like Milton Friedman. The obvious problem is that there's a *lot* we can do to improve the economy that we aren't doing, simply because doing so will massively increase suffering in society. We can legalize slavery. We can legalize child labour. We can kill everyone above the age of 60. But would that give us a "better" system ?
"I have yet to see any statistics that demonstrate that over a reasonable period of time (20+ years) a welfare state can produce faster economic growth, unless the welfare state began at a much lower economic level."
Norway ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Besides, the US is extremely rich in natural resources compared to most other developed countries. This obviously gives the US an edge. Then there's the advantages of being the biggest country in the developed world, which is the main reason for the US dollar's dominant position in the world economy. You shouldn't be so quick to assume libertarian ideas are the primary reasons for the US success. Milton Friedman and his "Chicago Boys" were given more or less free reign in fascist Chile from 73-90, and contrary to popular libertarian myths, it did little for the economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_per_capita_LA-Chile.png
Welfare for the poor shmuck=bad. Welfare for the corporations=standard op.
Bet between Slimbeast and Arius Dion about Wii sales 2009:
If the Wii sells less than 20 million in 2009 (as defined by VGC sales between week ending 3d Jan 2009 to week ending 4th Jan 2010) Slimebeast wins and get to control Arius Dion's sig for 1 month.
If the Wii sells more than 20 million in 2009 (as defined above) Arius Dion wins and gets to control Slimebeast's sig for 1 month.
Luney Tune said:
Denmark is an ultra liberal welfare state. With the possible exception of the Netherlands, Denmark has the most generous welfare system in the world. Denmark also has the highest income tax rates and the highest sales tax rates in the developed world. Calling Denmark "less socialist than the rest of Europe" implying that Denmark is somehow more like the US, is absurd. Denmark is pretty much the exact opposite of a right wing libertarian dream world. Denmark is an example how how the world should be. The US is not. |
Not true at all... most of Denmarks other policies in regards to labor are very un socialist.
For example the fact that 30% of Danish workers change jobs every year.
In healthcare and unemployment... they are very libreral. In other parts they are very libretarian. For example the above mentioned ability to fire anybody.
It's "flexwork" and it's successful for small countries like Denmark, but it provides huge challenges in larger countries.
