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Forums - General Discussion - Gallup: More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time

vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

Yes, if it's proven they would harm disasterously the life of the others. More problems in your example. Half of the population? Half the population is women yes but not everyone will get pregnant, and even less will have an abortion. Your example is just bad through and through.

Again you are equating a fetus to a born human. HUGE difference between the two there. Until a fetus does something to differentiate itself from that of a dog or a cat or another mammal in general, then it's not human.

So, you're allowed to ruin or end the life of one person if it makes another person's life better?

 "Half of the population? Half the population is women yes but not everyone will get pregnant, and even less will have an abortion".  What does this have to do with anything?  Rath and I were discussing the groups that support and oppose abortion, which, according to this Gallup poll, are about half-and-half.

"Again you are equating a fetus to a born human. HUGE difference between the two there. Until a fetus does something to differentiate itself from that of a dog or a cat or another mammal in general, then it's not human".

I'll assume this in respose to my other post.  I'm not really sure what it is you mean in your second sentence.  Do you mean  differentiate itself from the fetus of a dog or cat?  If so, there's a huge genetic difference, so that's one way already.

Alas! I must be off to work, so I won't be responding for a while.

 

DNA is a blueprint, nothing more. It's like saying that 2 buildings are different when all they have laid down is the ditch for the foundations. However at that point they are obviosuly different because the blueprint is different? I call bullshit on that.

Furthermore the fetus is a parasite, and correct me if I'm arong but a normal human isn't. A human doesn't depend on anyone else to live and be well. They depend on food and water and that's it. Before they are sustainable outside the mother the fetus is not human, it's a parasite.

Since you are so much for its rights, does that mean that you will oulaw pregnant drinking? Or smoking? Or eating unhealthily? Or doing heavy exercise? Or anything that will cause her to miscarry or damage the fetus? How the fuck is that not controlling one's body? You just basically made her a slave to that fetus, legally. F that.

If she wants that parasite out of her she should be able to remove it, if you want to save it, go ahead and find a way to keep it alive and going, as long as it's no longer in her. I don't care how you do it, implant in another mother, machines, or not at all.

You asked for a difference, and there is a massive genetic difference.  And there is a considerable amount of difference between a dog and a human than there is between two buildings.

Parasites and humans aren't mutually exclusive.  You can be a parasite and be human at the same time (blood transfusion, for example).  Even if that weren't the case, so what?

I would disallow anything that would kill or harm the fetus, of course, just as I would for disallow an actions committed by one person that would kill or harm another.  If that's what you mean by controlling the body, then what's the problem?  Should we allow people to go running around spraying bullets into buildings because we would be "controlling their bodies" otherwise?  Are they slaves to everyone else because that can't fulfill that particular whim?

 

 



Okami

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Rath said:
appolose said:

So, if half the population considered a certain group of people not human, the other half is just supposed to allow them to do whatever they want to that group of people?  Reminds me of slavery.

 

They are very different situations.

All different kinds of people, negroes, caucasians, orientals or aboriginals, display self awareness, consciousness, the ability to feel pain, emotions and many other things that foetuses simply don't. The problem is that there is a lack of agreement on when people become people. I personally take the point of where they gain the ability (or at least the necessary pieces to have the ability) to feel pain, as it is the first of the things that I consider to make up a person that develops.

 

This is an argument about what constitutes a human being, but what we were originally talking about was the situation my above question proposed.  What I'm saying is, I think you've switched subjects (pardon my bluntness).

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Rath said:
appolose said:

So, if half the population considered a certain group of people not human, the other half is just supposed to allow them to do whatever they want to that group of people?  Reminds me of slavery.

 

They are very different situations.

All different kinds of people, negroes, caucasians, orientals or aboriginals, display self awareness, consciousness, the ability to feel pain, emotions and many other things that foetuses simply don't. The problem is that there is a lack of agreement on when people become people. I personally take the point of where they gain the ability (or at least the necessary pieces to have the ability) to feel pain, as it is the first of the things that I consider to make up a person that develops.

 

This is an argument about what constitutes a human being, but what we were originally talking about was the situation my above question proposed.  What I'm saying is, I think you've switched subjects (pardon my bluntness).

 

The situation your above question proposed? You mean that they can do whatever they want to a group of people as long as its a majority?

What I was pointing out is that it would only be acceptable if they were not demonstatably a person (and hence don't automatically qualify for human rights), the only other situation I can think of where somebody is not demonstatably a person is in the case of being either brain dead or in a permanent vegatative state.

Hence the subject you brought up, slavery, is not acceptable because the slaves were demonstatably people with all the things that make people people.

 



stof said:
The only poll that really matters is "Hey pregnant lady, do you want to have an abortion?" If she answers no, then good for her. If she answers yes, than good for her and the anti abortionists can all go to hell.

Seriously, why should a woman's choice over her body be decided by a bunch of people that aren't her?

The strangest thing about the left wing, is the way you'll all rise up in concert with supposedly the more voiceless and defenseless groups in our society, but the moment it comes down too the most defenseless and voiceless members of our society, the unborn, you all jump ship.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

ZZetaAlec said:
nordlead said:
stof said:
The only poll that really matters is "Hey pregnant lady, do you want to have an abortion?" If she answers no, then good for her. If she answers yes, than good for her and the anti abortionists can all go to hell.

Seriously, why should a woman's choice over her body be decided by a bunch of people that aren't her?

Seriously, why should a human life's choice to life be decided by some woman who couldn't control herself?

 That's an exeptionaly black and white outlook on life. Sex isn't just a method of procreation to humans it's means of expressing love and devotion between two people, a hypothetical synario:

Two people engage in sexual intercourse, the male partner uses a condom however unbenownst to either the condom has a tear in it and several weeks later the women falls pregnant. She's currenty in college and has a large student debt and no consistent source of income. If she has the baby it will destroy her chances of doing well in higher education and therefore she will not be able to secure a job that will sufficiantly provide for her and the baby, thus leading her to live an extremely unhappy life as well as a resentment toward the baby's existence. Or she could simply terminate an unfeeling unliving bundle of cells, live a happy life and then proceed to have a child when she's mentaly ready and able to provide it with a happy life.

That would be INCREDIBLE!!!!

Not only would it be the longest surviving sperm in HISTORY (I mean WEEKS before the woman actually gets pregnant), but that would have to be the most extraordinary form of Mitosis ever, being able to cell divide without being alive.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

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The recent FNOD poll reconfirms the switch at 49 to 43. So it definitely seems like there has been a flip on the issue, the questions now are 1) how big is the gap really? - and - 2) Will it grow or stabilize (which is basically the same as asking why it changed)?



To Each Man, Responsibility
Rath said:
appolose said:
Rath said:
appolose said:

So, if half the population considered a certain group of people not human, the other half is just supposed to allow them to do whatever they want to that group of people?  Reminds me of slavery.

 

They are very different situations.

All different kinds of people, negroes, caucasians, orientals or aboriginals, display self awareness, consciousness, the ability to feel pain, emotions and many other things that foetuses simply don't. The problem is that there is a lack of agreement on when people become people. I personally take the point of where they gain the ability (or at least the necessary pieces to have the ability) to feel pain, as it is the first of the things that I consider to make up a person that develops.

 

This is an argument about what constitutes a human being, but what we were originally talking about was the situation my above question proposed.  What I'm saying is, I think you've switched subjects (pardon my bluntness).

 

The situation your above question proposed? You mean that they can do whatever they want to a group of people as long as its a majority?

What I was pointing out is that it would only be acceptable if they were not demonstatably a person (and hence don't automatically qualify for human rights), the only other situation I can think of where somebody is not demonstatably a person is in the case of being either brain dead or in a permanent vegatative state.

Hence the subject you brought up, slavery, is not acceptable because the slaves were demonstatably people with all the things that make people people.

 

But I do not think the slave owners (in that example) were unsure of their own position; they too felt quite justified.  Similarily, many people on both sides of the issue of abortion today feel that their positions are quite demonstratable or obvious.  Demonstrability is too subjective a term to use to determine this, I think.

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

Yes, if it's proven they would harm disasterously the life of the others. More problems in your example. Half of the population? Half the population is women yes but not everyone will get pregnant, and even less will have an abortion. Your example is just bad through and through.

Again you are equating a fetus to a born human. HUGE difference between the two there. Until a fetus does something to differentiate itself from that of a dog or a cat or another mammal in general, then it's not human.

So, you're allowed to ruin or end the life of one person if it makes another person's life better?

 "Half of the population? Half the population is women yes but not everyone will get pregnant, and even less will have an abortion".  What does this have to do with anything?  Rath and I were discussing the groups that support and oppose abortion, which, according to this Gallup poll, are about half-and-half.

"Again you are equating a fetus to a born human. HUGE difference between the two there. Until a fetus does something to differentiate itself from that of a dog or a cat or another mammal in general, then it's not human".

I'll assume this in respose to my other post.  I'm not really sure what it is you mean in your second sentence.  Do you mean  differentiate itself from the fetus of a dog or cat?  If so, there's a huge genetic difference, so that's one way already.

Alas! I must be off to work, so I won't be responding for a while.

 

DNA is a blueprint, nothing more. It's like saying that 2 buildings are different when all they have laid down is the ditch for the foundations. However at that point they are obviosuly different because the blueprint is different? I call bullshit on that.

Furthermore the fetus is a parasite, and correct me if I'm arong but a normal human isn't. A human doesn't depend on anyone else to live and be well. They depend on food and water and that's it. Before they are sustainable outside the mother the fetus is not human, it's a parasite.

Since you are so much for its rights, does that mean that you will oulaw pregnant drinking? Or smoking? Or eating unhealthily? Or doing heavy exercise? Or anything that will cause her to miscarry or damage the fetus? How the fuck is that not controlling one's body? You just basically made her a slave to that fetus, legally. F that.

If she wants that parasite out of her she should be able to remove it, if you want to save it, go ahead and find a way to keep it alive and going, as long as it's no longer in her. I don't care how you do it, implant in another mother, machines, or not at all.

You asked for a difference, and there is a massive genetic difference.  And there is a considerable amount of difference between a dog and a human than there is between two buildings.

Parasites and humans aren't mutually exclusive.  You can be a parasite and be human at the same time (blood transfusion, for example).  Even if that weren't the case, so what?

I would disallow anything that would kill or harm the fetus, of course, just as I would for disallow an actions committed by one person that would kill or harm another.  If that's what you mean by controlling the body, then what's the problem?  Should we allow people to go running around spraying bullets into buildings because we would be "controlling their bodies" otherwise?  Are they slaves to everyone else because that can't fulfill that particular whim?

 

 

 

See, now you are saying that if there's a parasite in you we get to control your body, simply put. I'm just purely looking at it from an Act Utilitarianism point of view. Meaning which will produce the greatest happiness in the most people. While the abortion won't necessarily cause happiness to the woman it certainly would prevent grief. On the other hand you have something that doesn't even feel ANYTHING, muchless happiness. Here you are telling me that the government should control just about every action of a woman when she is pregnant for some stupid parasite that won't even feel it if it got hit with a hammer in the zygote.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

starcraft said:
stof said:
The only poll that really matters is "Hey pregnant lady, do you want to have an abortion?" If she answers no, then good for her. If she answers yes, than good for her and the anti abortionists can all go to hell.

Seriously, why should a woman's choice over her body be decided by a bunch of people that aren't her?

The strangest thing about the left wing, is the way you'll all rise up in concert with supposedly the more voiceless and defenseless groups in our society, but the moment it comes down too the most defenseless and voiceless members of our society, the unborn, you all jump ship.

 

 

Your logic would be absolutely perfect and I'd swithc sides immidiately if it wasn't for your blatant fallacy in the bolded. Fetuses are parasites literally (metaphorically there's parasites of any age in any society i know), not members of our society.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Vlad, question: when do you think the baby becomes a human, and therefore has the right to life provided by the laws of the land (edit: as in the US Declaration of Independance)?

Is it:
1) At conception. (day 0)
2) At the beginning of the second Trimester. (week 12)
3) At the beginning of the third Trimester. (week 24)
4) At birth. (birthday)

Or some other more or less indefinable (at this time) point during the pregnancy?