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Forums - General Discussion - How many users on these boards actually support "The Theory of Evolution"?

sguy78 said:

We were created in God's image, which means we are self aware, and have free will. An ant most likely barely has any thought other than self preservation, and survival. A robot is not life by the way.

We werent created in God image, we are the product of billions of years of evolution.  Our similarities in makeup is evidence of this (humans and ants share most organs) and our physical image is familar to apes and early hominids, which I guess would also have to be created in or similar to Gods image.  Would you consider Neanderthal to be created in God's image?  Still the intelligence of animals, such as monkeys or dogs, when compared to humans is nothing in comparison between a superior being and humans.

Robots that we have now are not life, but what about a hypothetical race of intelligent, reproducing machines?  And life itself is nothing more than small machines made of organic material.  Interesting enough we can actually make gears out of a few atoms, even though man-made machines are nowhere near as efficient as life's mechanisms.



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ManusJustus said:
sguy78 said:

We were created in God's image, which means we are self aware, and have free will. An ant most likely barely has any thought other than self preservation, and survival. A robot is not life by the way.

We werent created in God image, we are the product of billions of years of evolution.  Our similarities in makeup is evidence of this (humans and ants share most organs) and our physical image is familar to apes and early hominids, which I guess would also have to be created in or similar to Gods image.  Would you consider Neanderthal to be created in God's image?  Still the intelligence of animals, such as monkeys or dogs, when compared to humans is nothing in comparison between a superior being and humans.

Robots that we have now are not life, but what about a hypothetical race of intelligent, reproducing machines?  And life itself is nothing more than small machines made of organic material.  Interesting enough we can actually make gears out of a few atoms, even though man-made machines are nowhere near as efficient as life's mechanisms.

You are stating that as if it is a fact. You do not know that God does not exist, and I'm sure that you don't believe he does. Why do you care so much whether others believe in God?



Something that can't be explained by evolution, is : Conciousness and Free Will.

No matter how much you try to understand how it would form via evolution, it's impossible. First you have to understand the essence of Conciousness and Free Will. If truly you believe everything is but cause and effect, then you believe that you don't have free will; you have no freedom of choice, because your choices are but a consequences of the functions - you are a robot, only acting the way you are programmed to (along with many variables though for being able to adapt and learn of course), in whatever means is most beneficial to survival.
As for consciousness, it is about experience and a sense of self, which is absolutely inexplicable via any scientific theories we have.
What seperates something that interprets data, like a computer or beings that would have come into being through evolution, from us humans who can experience and feel, are not comparable, and many scientists who have studied the brain in-depth actually agree. I think the mentality is that they'll say they just haven't been able to explain it yet, though personally I think it's beyond comprehension.

I've had many debates concerning these topics, and actually at first I was debating Against consciousness and free will, but after unsuccessfully finding anything to counter many arguments I've come across, and just generally trying to understand my own way of experiencing and feeling, I think it's obvious that the theory of evolution is flawed, or at least significantly incomplete.

If you believe that there's only cause and effect evolution, then you're basically saying that you're a robot incapable of truly making your own decisions or actually experiencing anything, since cause and effect cannot take into account such things. I'd myself would be able to find arguments against this statement, but in the end none truly hold up if you understand cause and effect and how the Theory of Evolution prortraits it, or assumes it.

Certain aspects of the human mind are also not beneficial in any way, such as panic (not to confuse with fight for flight), and negativity in depression.. though it's hard to explain what I mean exactly, as this is a topic which I've discussed countless days about with philosopher friends. There are certain responses in both the human body and mind which are useful, but some are completely destructive and useless, we do not benefit in any way from it, and some of that I just call it plain negativity.. but there's other things as well. When you cry, you're not necessarily feeling bad or negative, but there's an added level of negative interpretation that can make you feel bad, and that leads to all sorts of destructive outcomes... but.. geh, too long a subject, maybe nevermind this, but I think many can agree that many things that happen with the human mind are only destructive and aren't beneficial to the individual, the race, or reproduction and whatnot.


If it's unclear why I'm claiming these things about consciousness, I'd have trouble explaining because it's very subjective; that is, experiencing can only be understood by individuals, and you can't really reproduce it or be sure that others besides yourself have it or understand it like you do.. same thing for feelings and free will.



Wind Shlavitor said:

Something that can't be explained by evolution, is : Conciousness and Free Will.

No matter how much you try to understand how it would form via evolution, it's impossible. First you have to understand the essence of Conciousness and Free Will. If truly you believe everything is but cause and effect, then you believe that you don't have free will; you have no freedom of choice, because your choices are but a consequences of the functions - you are a robot, only acting the way you are programmed to (along with many variables though for being able to adapt and learn of course), in whatever means is most beneficial to survival.
As for consciousness, it is about experience and a sense of self, which is absolutely inexplicable via any scientific theories we have.
What seperates something that interprets data, like a computer or beings that would have come into being through evolution, from us humans who can experience and feel, are not comparable, and many scientists who have studied the brain in-depth actually agree. I think the mentality is that they'll say they just haven't been able to explain it yet, though personally I think it's beyond comprehension.

I've had many debates concerning these topics, and actually at first I was debating Against consciousness and free will, but after unsuccessfully finding anything to counter many arguments I've come across, and just generally trying to understand my own way of experiencing and feeling, I think it's obvious that the theory of evolution is flawed, or at least significantly incomplete.

If you believe that there's only cause and effect evolution, then you're basically saying that you're a robot incapable of truly making your own decisions or actually experiencing anything, since cause and effect cannot take into account such things. I'd myself would be able to find arguments against this statement, but in the end none truly hold up if you understand cause and effect and how the Theory of Evolution prortraits it, or assumes it.

Certain aspects of the human mind are also not beneficial in any way, such as panic (not to confuse with fight for flight), and negativity in depression.. though it's hard to explain what I mean exactly, as this is a topic which I've discussed countless days about with philosopher friends. There are certain responses in both the human body and mind which are useful, but some are completely destructive and useless, we do not benefit in any way from it, and some of that I just call it plain negativity.. but there's other things as well. When you cry, you're not necessarily feeling bad or negative, but there's an added level of negative interpretation that can make you feel bad, and that leads to all sorts of destructive outcomes... but.. geh, too long a subject, maybe nevermind this, but I think many can agree that many things that happen with the human mind are only destructive and aren't beneficial to the individual, the race, or reproduction and whatnot.


If it's unclear why I'm claiming these things about consciousness, I'd have trouble explaining because it's very subjective; that is, experiencing can only be understood by individuals, and you can't really reproduce it or be sure that others besides yourself have it or understand it like you do.. same thing for feelings and free will.

Leaving aside (for th moment anyway) the question of whether the theory of evolution assumes a strict cause-effect situation that leaves no possibility of free will ...

Why would that show that evolution is flawed?  Obviously it would mean that we don't have free will, but why would that claim expose a flaw in evolution?  Are you saying that you can prove you have free will beyond what evolution allows for, and that is the flaw?  Or is it just that you are not comfortable with that conclusion? 

As for harmful human traits, isn't it possible that those are simply negative side effects of developments that were overall positive?  It would still be evolutionarily beneficial to have those traits, even though they cause problems.  For instance, African peoples are prone to having sickle-cell anemia, but this trait helps them survive malaria, so it is a net positive to this day (I think) in areas that are prone to malaria. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_anemia

This could apply to mental conditions as well as physical ones.  I could engage in wild speculation as to what benefits accompanied the drawbacks you mentioned, but I doubt it would be too productive. 



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Final-Fan said:

Leaving aside (for th moment anyway) the question of whether the theory of evolution assumes a strict cause-effect situation that leaves no possibility of free will ...

Why would that show that evolution is flawed?  Obviously it would mean that we don't have free will, but why would that claim expose a flaw in evolution?  Are you saying that you can prove you have free will beyond what evolution allows for, and that is the flaw?  Or is it just that you are not comfortable with that conclusion? 

As for harmful human traits, isn't it possible that those are simply negative side effects of developments that were overall positive?  It would still be evolutionarily beneficial to have those traits, even though they cause problems.  For instance, African peoples are prone to having sickle-cell anemia, but this trait helps them survive malaria, so it is a net positive to this day (I think) in areas that are prone to malaria. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_anemia

This could apply to mental conditions as well as physical ones.  I could engage in wild speculation as to what benefits accompanied the drawbacks you mentioned, but I doubt it would be too productive. 

 

 How can I prove it? I can't really take my free will in my hands and show you :P That's why it's subjective. Not unprovable, but subjectively provable. Don't forget that you have your own free will to look at though.. but to what degree you understand it, I dunno.

 It shows that it's flawed because it means there's something that evolution doesn't account for... meaning that there are other factors to take in consideration when trying to understand where humanity has come from. Why doesn't it account for it? Well then you have to understand that evolution Does assume strictly cause and effect..   As in:  cause&effect+time=change .   But change that's by cause and effect cannot develop certain aspects (such as conciousness).  it's like, however you program AI in a computer, you'll never get the computer to 'experience', it can only 'interpret' very complexily... and there's a giant difference between the two. Why is it like that? Because there's a limit to everything. It's the same reason scientists would believe you can't develop special magical powers, because everything is limited by what 'known' physics are. And with those known physics, it doesn't account for those... so where can that come from? Well, obviously it'd be from physics we don't yet understand, or other factors..

As for your harmful traits argument, I'll have to leave it at that for now because I can foresee arguements that I wouldn't be able to go into without more knowledge or expertise of how it's considered outside of my terms and such, so nevermind that.



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Wind Shlavitor said:

Something that can't be explained by evolution, is : Conciousness and Free Will.

Conciousness and free will are the same thing.  You cant have a concious person without free will, nor can you have a person with free will that has no concious.

All animals with brains have forms of conciousness, but humans are obvioulsy superior in the usage of it.  A group of men talking about why an apple falls from a tree is only different in scale of complexity from a group of coyotes who is planning to attack a herd of deer.  Conciousness is the product of evolution and the ability of animals to respond to their environment.  The unconcious brain is the part of the brain that controls activities that you dont even know you have control over.  You dont control the beating of your heart, the unconcious part of the brain does that.  The unconcious brain also stores information that is vital to survival, such as your immediate surroundings or tasks you do without thinking about it.  The consious and unconcious brain are not entirely seperated, and you can take control of tasks that your unconcious brain does automatically, such as breathing.

The evolutionary advantage to having concious is that you can make decisions regarding your environment.  A human (or even a dog)  is not thinking about breathing as they go about their daily routine, but if they fall into water they use their concious brain to take control of their breathing and hold it so that they do not get water in their lungs.



"A group of men talking about why an apple falls from a tree is only different in scale of complexity from a group of coyotes who is planning to attack a herd of deer."

  The type of complexity is completely different, you can program a robot to attack a herd, and to plan it according to many variables.. that doesn't mean it has conciousness.

AI can analyze environments too, it just needs to have the tools for getting data, then code for interpreting the data, and then act according to the data inputted. it doesn't really have a choice, as it is just doing what it's programmed to do.



sguy78 said:
ManusJustus said:
sguy78 said:

We were created in God's image, which means we are self aware, and have free will. An ant most likely barely has any thought other than self preservation, and survival. A robot is not life by the way.

We werent created in God image, we are the product of billions of years of evolution.  Our similarities in makeup is evidence of this (humans and ants share most organs) and our physical image is familar to apes and early hominids, which I guess would also have to be created in or similar to Gods image.  Would you consider Neanderthal to be created in God's image?  Still the intelligence of animals, such as monkeys or dogs, when compared to humans is nothing in comparison between a superior being and humans.

Robots that we have now are not life, but what about a hypothetical race of intelligent, reproducing machines?  And life itself is nothing more than small machines made of organic material.  Interesting enough we can actually make gears out of a few atoms, even though man-made machines are nowhere near as efficient as life's mechanisms.

You are stating that as if it is a fact. You do not know that God does not exist, and I'm sure that you don't believe he does. Why do you care so much whether others believe in God?

Nor do you know that God exists.  I know that God has done nothing in this universe for 13 billion years, I do not know about God's presence before the Big Bang or in other universes, but since religion is a product of social evolution (making patterns where none exists is adventageous and primitive man needed answers for things he could not explain) it is more logical to think of God as not existing as compared to existing and man discovering him by chance.

I care what others believe for the same reason they care what I believe.  It is adventageous (social evolution) for others to think like you, which is why humans constantly try to convince others to think like them.  A simple example would be that we want leaders to think like us so we try to convince others to think as we do, a person who wants to pay less taxes will try to convince others that paying less taxes is best and vote for a politicans who promises less taxes.

The same goes for me, other people's ideas have a direct effect on me.  Athiests are the most persecuted people on Earth, and even in America where it isnt a crime, being atheist will ostrisize you from many in society.  I also am subject to paying taxes to support religion, having to recognize others religion in everyday life, and have the threat of my children being taught falsehoods such as creationism and intelligent design from others.



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ManusJustus said:
sguy78 said:
ManusJustus said:
sguy78 said:

We were created in God's image, which means we are self aware, and have free will. An ant most likely barely has any thought other than self preservation, and survival. A robot is not life by the way.

We werent created in God image, we are the product of billions of years of evolution.  Our similarities in makeup is evidence of this (humans and ants share most organs) and our physical image is familar to apes and early hominids, which I guess would also have to be created in or similar to Gods image.  Would you consider Neanderthal to be created in God's image?  Still the intelligence of animals, such as monkeys or dogs, when compared to humans is nothing in comparison between a superior being and humans.

Robots that we have now are not life, but what about a hypothetical race of intelligent, reproducing machines?  And life itself is nothing more than small machines made of organic material.  Interesting enough we can actually make gears out of a few atoms, even though man-made machines are nowhere near as efficient as life's mechanisms.

You are stating that as if it is a fact. You do not know that God does not exist, and I'm sure that you don't believe he does. Why do you care so much whether others believe in God?

Nor do you know that God exists.  I know that God has done nothing in this universe for 13 billion years, I do not know about God's presence before the Big Bang or in other universes, but since religion is a product of social evolution (making patterns where none exists is adventageous and primitive man needed answers for things he could not explain) it is more logical to think of God as not existing as compared to existing and man discovering him by chance.

I care what others believe for the same reason they care what I believe.  It is adventageous (social evolution) for others to think like you, which is why humans constantly try to convince others to think like them.  A simple example would be that we want leaders to think like us so we try to convince others to think as we do, a person who wants to pay less taxes will try to convince others that paying less taxes is best and vote for a politicans who promises less taxes.

The same goes for me, other people's ideas have a direct effect on me.  Athiests are the most persecuted people on Earth, and even in America where it isnt a crime, being atheist will ostrisize you from many in society.  I also am subject to paying taxes to support religion, having to recognize others religion in everyday life, and have the threat of my children being taught falsehoods such as creationism and intelligent design from others.

Again, you are stating opinion as fact. You don't know that God has had nothing to do with the universe for 13 billion years. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it a falsehood. Where do you get these numbers of atheists being the most persecuted people on earth?