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Forums - General - How many users on these boards actually support "The Theory of Evolution"?

akuma587 said:
The fact that bacteria have mitochondria and choloplasts (which if you look at them are actually little other bacteria that were "eaten" a long time ago and essentially became an organelle of the bacteria as time went on) is more than enough proof that they have evolved. And there are millions of other examples.

That's a popular theory... it's not the only theory though... nor has it been proven....

Once again quoting wikipeida....

  • Neither mitochondria nor plastids can survive in oxygen or outside the cell, having lost many essential genes required for survival. The standard counterargument points to the large timespan that the mitochondria/plastids have co-existed with their hosts. In this view, genes and systems which were no longer necessary were simply deleted, or in many cases, transferred into the host genome instead. (In fact these transfers constitute an important way for the host cell to regulate plastid or mitochondrial activity.)
  • The transfer of genes from mitochondria and plastids to the “host genome” or cell nucleus raises a further problem: why were all genes not transferred? In other words, why do any genes at all remain in mitochondria and plastids? This problem is addressed by the CoRR Hypothesis which proposes that genes and respiratory chain proteins are Co-located for Redox Regulation.
  • A large cell, especially one equipped for phagocytosis, has vast energetic requirements, which cannot be achieved without the internalisation of energy production (due to the decrease in the surface area to volume ratio as size increases). This implies that, for the cell to gain mitochondria, it could not have been a primitive eukaryote, but instead a prokaryotic cell. This in turn implies that the emergence of the eukaryotes and the formation of mitochondria were achieved simultaneously.
  • Genetic analysis of small eukaryotes that lack mitochondria shows that they all still retain genes for mitochondrial proteins. This implies that all these eukaryotes once had mitochondria. This objection can be answered if, as suggested above, the origin of the eukaryotes coincided with the formation of mitochondria.

There are hypothisis to explain it... but nothing set.

There has to be a different better example for evolution... a Theory can't be based on hypothisises.

I think looking futher along the line is a more likely way to find what makes it an accepted fact.



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Slimebeast said:
akuma587 said:
The fact that bacteria have mitochondria and choloplasts (which if you look at them are actually little other bacteria that were "eaten" a long time ago and essentially became an organelle of the bacteria as time went on) is more than enough proof that they have evolved. And there are millions of other examples.

 

 Im not denying that bacteria have evolved (of course they have, but to what degree?). Im disputing/questioning the current evolution theory and the principle of the single origin hypothesis. Based on that principle, with such an early "split" into eukaryotes and prokaryotes in earth history, why did the prokaryotes get "stuck" in bacterial, extremely simple form, while eukaryotes just kept evolving into millions of species so different u only can fantasize about it? It doesnt make sense.

Okay, see? You keep changing the question around. It's kind of hard to have a lot of diversity if you only have one cell and reproduce asexually. Does that answer your question?

 



 

 

Killergran said:
Slimebeast said:

But yeah, bacteria are the big proof that there's a fundamental difference between micro- and macroevolution.

That macroevolution is unlikely.

You forgot to ask the 'why' question. Why is it unlikely for bacteria to evolve to multicell organisms?

And how on earth do you know this hasn't already happened, unsuccessfully? And if it's unsuccessful, why is that?

How about other single-cell organisms? You didn't mention them. Are there any Eukaryot smallnumbered cell organisms? Why? And if so, are they disqualified as evidence?

I think the question here should be, why is the cellcore so important to multiple cell organisms, and do we have any idea where it came from?

 

 You Sir ask some good questions.

You should still modify them a lil IMO, to a broader sense. To look from a broader perspective than to just narrow yourself into thinking "why is the cellcore so important".

Because that would need proof that says that "inventing" the cellcore is an extremely unlikely event in organisms.
(but I have never ever heard anyone claim that)



CHYUII said:
Evolution is a philosophy because scientific method can never be applied to it.

Oh dear, you better tell that to the thousands of evolutionary biologists who have already applied the sceintific method to it. Evolution has made many testable predictions and has not once been falsified. I don't see how you can possibly claim that the scientific method can't be applied to the theory of evolution.

We have no way of researching it, because we have no way of reproducing the moments in which life was created on Earth.

Evolution does not deal with the moments in which life was first created, that is the study of abiogenesis and entirely seperate to the study of evolution. Evolution is only dealing with the changes in already existing life.


If it is a fact then scientist would not still call it a theory.

Most scientists will tell you that evolution itself is a fact, we know through observation of the fossil record that life changes over time, the theory of evolution is the mechanism that explains this fact. In any case a theory in science can have a huge amount of proof for it and still be a theory, for example the theory of general relativity. No matter how much proof a theory has it is a still a theory because under science a theory essentially means something which explains the underlying cause of an observation and from which predictions can then be made.

A fact, a theory and a law are all distinct under science. A fact is an observation, a theory is a broad mechanism causing that observation and a law is a single statement that is true under all conditions.



Statistically speaking it is very improbable that random chance gave rise to order (not to mention it is against the PROVEN Laws of Science).

If the law of science you are speaking of is the second law of thermodynamics then you are highly incorrect. The second law of thermodyanamics only applies in a closed system, the environment is not a closed system we recieve a huge amount of energy from the sun.

Darwin said that if it could be proven that life forms did not become more complicated over a series of successive improvements, then his theory would be proven wrong.

And life forms do become more complicated through mutations such as gene duplication. Also Darwin isn't the authoratative voice on evolution, he was wrong on many counts which have now been corrected in the modern theory of evolution.

Micheal Denton an atheist wrote a book called evolution: a theory in Crisis, He spent the first part of the book ripping religion. And then went on to make his case-

And he is not alone in those beliefs other scientist believe the same.

Interestingly Michael Denton's latter book Natures Destiny assumes evolution to be true.

I am not anti- science but I am Anti- Dogma and the theory of Evo. is sometimes just that.

Dogma doesn't change, the theory of evolution is constantly revised in line with new research and information. Thats what happens in science.

I believe in Micro but not Macro.

Micro and Macro are exactly the same thing, just over different timescales.

The rest is more in line with Intelligent Design because Intelligent Design is more inline with the ACTUAL LAWS of SCIENCE.

But this is a free country and I do not mean to step on anothers beliefs, we are free to worship as we choose...

 

Now in my opinion one of the most hard things to refute, evidence of evolution over an amazingly short timescales in recent times.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

 



@Kasz: Absolutely, it is still just a hypothesis, but even the fact that you have something as strange as organelles in a bacteria that have their own set of DNA almost intuitively suggests that they were once their own separate bacteria. I have yet to see an explanation that makes as much sense given the nature of mitochondria/chloroplasts and bacteria themselves.



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Slimebeast said:
largedarryl said:
You answered my question Slimebeast.

I would just like to know why you would choose bacteria as a basis for this argument. Ancient species of bacteria will have very little to no real fossil evidence to allow us to assume 1 way or another that evolution really occurred. So realistically basing your arguments on one of the more incomplete evolution chains is relatively difficult to discuss.

 

 That's a decent argument. But... I see it like this.

We do know that bacteria is a huge gene pool, and old too (according to common evol theory). If it is so... I see it like this - there should be all sorts of offsprings from the prokaryotic line, much similar to the eukaryotic line, pretty much "all the time". But there is none (xcept the rare cases I mention, but they arent genuinly multicellular).

That is a perfectly fine position to have and there isn't anything wrong with it, but faulting all of evolution theory based on the reasoning that bacteria do not ever evolve into multi-celled organisms is being a little narrow minded.  I thought there was some evidence proving that multi-celled bacteria couldn't exist based on some traits that exist in bacteria.

 



akuma587 said:
@Kasz: Absolutely, it is still just a hypothesis, but even the fact that you have something as strange as organelles in a bacteria that have their own set of DNA almost intuitively suggests that they were once their own separate bacteria. I have yet to see an explanation that makes as much sense given the nature of mitochondria/chloroplasts and bacteria themselves.

I believe in Evolution... so just playing devils advocate but...

What about helpful DNA Damage?

Rather then like with humans where it is negative... the DNA damage actually helped those parts of the bacteria... and as such the DNA damage was helpful?


After all Cancer Cells are genetically different from other cells.  If we were born with cancer one could come to the same conclusion you did?

Additionally there are people with two types of DNA.

Some are due to inheriting their wayward twins DNA and others happen due to errors in replication.

It could of just been the cause of a replication error.



MontanaHatchet said:
Slimebeast said:
akuma587 said:
The fact that bacteria have mitochondria and choloplasts (which if you look at them are actually little other bacteria that were "eaten" a long time ago and essentially became an organelle of the bacteria as time went on) is more than enough proof that they have evolved. And there are millions of other examples.

 

 Im not denying that bacteria have evolved (of course they have, but to what degree?). Im disputing/questioning the current evolution theory and the principle of the single origin hypothesis. Based on that principle, with such an early "split" into eukaryotes and prokaryotes in earth history, why did the prokaryotes get "stuck" in bacterial, extremely simple form, while eukaryotes just kept evolving into millions of species so different u only can fantasize about it? It doesnt make sense.

Okay, see? You keep changing the question around. It's kind of hard to have a lot of diversity if you only have one cell and reproduce asexually. Does that answer your question?

 

Im not dodging or anything like that. Perhaps Im clumsy in my presentation but thats all.

 I'd like to object to your claim when you say "it's kind of hard to have a lot of diversity" about bacteria, when people argue that "yeah, it was perfectly logical and likely that amino acids started getting linked together and eventually became all life forms we know of", and they did it step bby step - in the next step these amino acid strings formed self replicating machines and so on (as the first steps of how life started, the early "pre-life" that now is extinct, from the special conditions of a young earth).

Just take a look at the bacteria pool - that mass of potential to "become" stuff is vastly bigger than the self-replicating primitive machines that then became the first cells.


I mean, the possibility for 100s of billions of billions of bacteria to become any other "species" should be a lot more likely, during 500 million years, than for the "primordial soup" amino acids to become the first cell in the first place.

Life should have branched of from the prokaryotic tree so much more.

 



Evolution



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The Ghost of RubangB said:
Could you at least cite a source that proves that bacteria have never evolved, not once, not ever, never ever never?

If so, I will believe your case, which is that bacteria haven't evolved.

But I don't see how that would prove or disprove anything bigger about anything else.

Because to my knowledge, bacteria have evolved in millions of ways, and there are millions of scientific articles studying it.

 

 Just saying if u missed it: im not saying bacteria doesn't evolve at all. Im asking why they are stuck. (yes, IMO "them being stuck" is a pretty good description to point at the essence of the problem, even if you can obviously easily dispute it by saying that there's a myriad of variety between bacteria)