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Forums - General - FBI Official Involved in Torture Interrogations Says They Did Not Work

akuma587 said:
MrBubbles said:
obviously the court wasnt being effective, was it?

Neither was the Constitution.

 

fine then...make a new one.  im not stopping you.

 

 



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Its funny that some of the people who argue for torture talk about real life situations in which you have a ticking bomb where you have to torture someone to save other people's lives. And the first example they usually give you is a TV show starring Jack Bauer.

The ticking time bomb situation is a fantastical scenario used to justify doing things that would normally land you in a federal prison or in an international war tribunal.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Yeah. Well. TV raised us. Of course, we are going to reference TV shows for all our life experiences.



Tyrannical said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
It is possible to argue that it is ineffective and morally wrong.


Argument #1: Whether it works or not, it is un-American and morally wrong.

Argument #2: Whether it's morally acceptable or not, it doesn't work.

 You can also argue that it is effective and morally right.

The needs of the  many (the lives saved by averting a terrorist attack) out way the needs of the few (the terrorist being tortured). You could also further argue that sacrficing the rights of the unjust terrorists saves the lives of completely innocent people that were in no way involved with the torture.

You were telling akuma to pick an argument.  I was just pointing out that he didn't need to because they were separate arguments.  Apparently you already knew this and were just flamebaiting as usual.  Carry on.



akuma587 said:

Its funny that some of the people who argue for torture talk about real life situations in which you have a ticking bomb where you have to torture someone to save other people's lives. And the first example they usually give you is a TV show starring Jack Bauer.

The ticking time bomb situation is a fantastical scenario used to justify doing things that would normally land you in a federal prison or in an international war tribunal.

 

 Well, I've never actualy seen 24. Interesting how often that torture and prisoner abuse is so often justified in movies and TV though. It's routine for audiances to cheer when the hero "lets" the villian die instead of saving him.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

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Waterboarding is wrong. Sleep deprivation and starvation is wrong.

But playing Britney Spears non-stop to a suspected terrorist? That shit is funny.




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rocketpig said:
Waterboarding is wrong. Sleep deprivation and starvation is wrong.

But playing Britney Spears non-stop to a suspected terrorist? That shit is funny.

Nicely put.  I don't think sleep deprivation and starvation are inherently wrong as long as they are done reasonably.  If we are keeping someone up for a week straight, that's way too much.  If we aren't feeding them for days at a time, that is too much.

It was pretty funny some of the random ass shit they were playing to these people, like Sesame Street music.  But I also think it was a slap in the face to the artists who made a lot of this music and actively protested the government doing this.

I don't understand how people can complain about big government but have no problem with the government doing all kinds of unspeakable things in backrooms in our country.  Big government that can throw you in a box and take away the key is the type of big government you should genuinely be afraid of.  You may not agree when the government grows in size, but at least it isn't going to strap you do a wooden horse and do all kinds of unspeakable things to you while playing re-runs of Green Acres.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:

Nicely put.  I don't think sleep deprivation and starvation are inherently wrong as long as they are done reasonably.  If we are keeping someone up for a week straight, that's way too much.  If we aren't feeding them for days at a time, that is too much.

I don't understand how people can complain about big government but have no problem with the government doing all kinds of unspeakable things in backrooms in our country.  Big government that can throw you in a box and take away the key is the type of big government you should genuinely be afraid of.  You may not agree when the government grows in size, but at least it isn't going to strap you do a wooden horse and do all kinds of unspeakable things to you while playing re-runs of Green Acres. 

 

What an interesting insight into your psyche. I honestly think you may eventually come around to my way of thinking, as much as it abhors you now. As you grow older, you’ll lose some heart and gain some brain. Unless Winston Churchill was a liar.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Remind me to blow my brains out if I ever become more like you, Tyrannical.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
MrBubbles said:
sometimes morality is irrelevant. when you work to save lives, you do whats effective.

So why not just nuke the Middle East and get it over with?  That would be the most effective.

 

 

because there is an art to warfare.



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