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Forums - General - Is a Civil War brewing in the US?

akuma587 on 23 April 2009

What rules have changed?  States don't have to take federal money if they don't want it.  The federal government doesn't tax states directly.  And do you honestly think that the states would not have to jack up their tax rates to maintain themselves as a national entity?

And the states have been SO benevolent with their powers. They were certainly not the ones who have committed some of the biggest atrocities to the Constitution. I find it laughable that people still stand by state's rights when states have so thoroughly abused their power that it has been increasingly taken away from them as the country has gone on.

Not to mention the Confederacy was a miserable failure as a working model of government.  Its not like the states who seceded even had a good alternative.  Imagine trying to coordinate something like a comprehensive counter-terrorism program between a bunch of states who can't agree on anything?  Not to mention even Mexico or Canda could probably take on just about any state that seceded.

I can't even believe we are having a serious talk about secession THREE MONTHS into Obama's presidency considering how any liberals who criticized the government were lambasted as traitors.  At least they never suggested secession.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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Username2324 on 23 April 2009

What a load of biased BS......



TheRealMafoo on 23 April 2009
akuma587 said:

I find it laughable that people still stand by state's rights when states have so thoroughly abused their power that it has been increasingly taken away from them as the country has gone on.

 

If they were rights, how does one take them away?

And I think it's funny that you feel they were taken away because they abused them. I guess this is why you are for taking my rights away. You feel I abuse them.



Kasz216 on 23 April 2009
akuma587 said:

What rules have changed?  States don't have to take federal money if they don't want it.  The federal government doesn't tax states directly.  And do you honestly think that the states would not have to jack up their tax rates to maintain themselves as a national entity?

And the states have been SO benevolent with their powers. They were certainly not the ones who have committed some of the biggest atrocities to the Constitution. I find it laughable that people still stand by state's rights when states have so thoroughly abused their power that it has been increasingly taken away from them as the country has gone on.

Not to mention the Confederacy was a miserable failure as a working model of government.  Its not like the states who seceded even had a good alternative.  Imagine trying to coordinate something like a comprehensive counter-terrorism program between a bunch of states who can't agree on anything?  Not to mention even Mexico or Canda could probably take on just about any state that seceded.

I can't even believe we are having a serious talk about secession THREE MONTHS into Obama's presidency considering how any liberals who criticized the government were lambasted as traitors.  At least they never suggested secession.

I'm going to guess he means... secession.

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"

- Thomas Jefferson, our third president. (while president.)

 

Even at the time of the Civil War... the Northern newspapers had editorials suggesting that keeping the south in the union would be wrong.


Up until the Civil War Secession was considered a right.



Viper1 on 23 April 2009
akuma587 said:

And the states have been SO benevolent with their powers. They were certainly not the ones who have committed some of the biggest atrocities to the Constitution. I find it laughable that people still stand by state's rights when states have so thoroughly abused their power that it has been increasingly taken away from them as the country has gone on.

Like the federal government doesn't?

 

PS: The Civil War was about the north demanding that slaves be counted as a 3/5ths person for the census and therfore the tally of representatives.   The south wanted the slaves to be counted as a whole person and when the north denied it, war began.   Lovely how our text books in school try to make it look like a southern agressive issue or the north's attempt to criminalize slavery, isn't it?



The rEVOLution is not being televised

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akuma587 on 23 April 2009

The Civil War wasn't about any one thing. The Civil War was about A LOT of different things.

I've heard at least twenty different people tell me that the Civil War was about one particular thing. And they are all wrong. There were too many different parties involved and two many different interests at stake to say that it was about one thing.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

jv103 on 24 April 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
highwaystar101 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:
Threatening to secede from the Union is about the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

 

Why?

If the Union is far more of a burden then they are worth, why should a state stay? (Other than the fact that the US would attack them).

The problem is the only states that can afford to leave; the US cannot afford to lose.

Could any state survive to current standards by themselves though. I would almost bet that California would be the only one that would thrive without the USA and that's only because of the amount of industry there.

 

California would fail (the way it is now anyway). The only three states that come to mind, are Texas, Alaska, and Hawaii.

They generate far more taxes for the US then they consume.

Actually so does California (at least in 2006-right now I doubt it). Don't hate on my state. Even though we spend a shit load on prisons and a bunch of other retarded shit.

 



jv103 on 24 April 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:

I find it laughable that people still stand by state's rights when states have so thoroughly abused their power that it has been increasingly taken away from them as the country has gone on.

 

If they were rights, how does one take them away?

And I think it's funny that you feel they were taken away because they abused them. I guess this is why you are for taking my rights away. You feel I abuse them.

 

 Because rights are made up and only allowed only during times of prosperity and relative ease. It's sad - but that's the best we can do apparently.



akuma587 on 24 April 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:

I find it laughable that people still stand by state's rights when states have so thoroughly abused their power that it has been increasingly taken away from them as the country has gone on.

 

If they were rights, how does one take them away?

And I think it's funny that you feel they were taken away because they abused them. I guess this is why you are for taking my rights away. You feel I abuse them.

With the 14th Amendment and the Due Process Clause in the 14th that the states all ratified...they GAVE UP their rights to the federal government.  There is no rule that says you can't voluntarily give up your rights. 

Before then, the states didn't have to obey the Bill of Rights, and The Supreme Court wasn't enforcing it against them until about 100 years later.  Fortunately that all changed in the 50-60's.

Rights are regularly taken away if you abuse them.  If you commit crimes and kill people, you are thrown in jail and lose your freedom.  If you swindle people out of their money, they can sue you for it and you can lose your property.  If you injure people because you are reckless, you can be sued and also go to jail.  Rights are not absolute.  You abuse them and you lose them.  That is what happened to the states and why if you wanted to re-join the Union you had to ratify the 14th and 15th Amendment.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

The Ghost of RubangB on 24 April 2009
Slimebeast said:
I never thought the polarization was so huge in the US. It's been very apparent on VGC too lately (although I fink half of the liberals debating are from the UK).

Or rather, I didnt think there was so many liberals as there seem to be. I though 'liberal' was a foul word in the US.

Bush lost the popular vote in 2000, and in 2004 he won, but during a war, we have never voted out a sitting president ever.  Bush won by the smallest margin a sitting president has ever won by during a war.  And then John Kerry actually won more states in 2004 than McCain did in 2008, and that was against some young punk "with no experience."

America goes back and forth, and Bush ruined the idea of convervatism for a great many moderates, who moved to the left, or at least just slightly enough to the left to vote for Obama at least once.

There are many liberals all over the country.  Fox has tried to make the word sound bad by running a smear campaign against all liberals and all of liberalism for the last 8 years, but I hope you're not learning about America from Fox.

 

EDIT: And it's definitely not as crazy as the OP thinks it is.  There's still a lot of racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, and inequality, but it's nowhere near a civil war, and nobody's seceding.  We just have a whole lot of loud angry wackos on TV and the internet, on all sides of all issues.  I blame the first amendment.



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