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Forums - General Discussion - Did Miss California lose because of her opinion on gay marriage?

WessleWoggle on 22 April 2009
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
.

 

But marriage itself has simply become an unfortunate false symbol of what many gays would consider to be the straight community "accepting" them.

 

I highly disagree. Gay marriage is a symbol for equality... Nothing to do with acceptance. It's fully understandable that people don't support my orientation. What's not understandable is their personal views effecting the law.

EXACTLY!!! Gay marriage has ZERO practical effect on the lives of homosexuals, but a measurable negative effect on those who oppose it.  Finally we agree. Although I sense you still do not understand.

Why on earth should the personal views of a minority change the law, but the personal views of the many do not?  All you're able to say is that you're right.  Because you personally want something so badly, you're completely incapable of asking yourself honestly why you want it, what you could conceivably gain from it, or how badly and unnecessarily you will hurt people in your quest for it.  Successful or otherwise.

 

The practical effect of allowing gay marriage is that it FAIR and EQUAL, IT CORRECTS AN INJUSTICE.

Why do you think protecting people's feelings is more important than equal rights?

Answer that please.

edit: double post, I thought my last post didn't go through.

The measurable effect on people who oppose it, doesn't matter. It will only be mental distress within their mind.

How will that cause harm to the real world?

The views of a minority should change the law is the law is unfair. It's called equal rights, this is america, the right of every citizen should be equal no matter their creed or orientation. Giving it a different name IS NOT EQUAL. It's about the principle of equal rights. I think equal rights is more important than protecting some silly tradition. You seem to disagree with that. Why?

I know why I want gay marriage. It's FAIR. It's about the principle of EQUALITY.

Equality > Majority bias

I'm doing much more than just saying I'm right. You're the one who's doing that. You're saying it's right to protect a silly tradition so people don't get their feelings hurt, I'm saying it's right that gays should get equal rights.

Your position has horrible logic.

My logic:

Gays cannot marry someone who they are attracted to, thus they do not have equal rights, and they should.

Your logic:

It doesn't matter if there isn't equality, we should protect marriage so people don't get their feelings hurt, peoples feelings take precidence over equal rights.

 

If I have your logic wrong, please tell me.

WHY do you think protecting people's feelings is more important than equal rights?

 



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starcraft on 22 April 2009
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
.

 

But marriage itself has simply become an unfortunate false symbol of what many gays would consider to be the straight community "accepting" them.

 

I highly disagree. Gay marriage is a symbol for equality... Nothing to do with acceptance. It's fully understandable that people don't support my orientation. What's not understandable is their personal views effecting the law.

EXACTLY!!! Gay marriage has ZERO practical effect on the lives of homosexuals, but a measurable negative effect on those who oppose it.  Finally we agree. Although I sense you still do not understand.

Why on earth should the personal views of a minority change the law, but the personal views of the many do not?  All you're able to say is that you're right.  Because you personally want something so badly, you're completely incapable of asking yourself honestly why you want it, what you could conceivably gain from it, or how badly and unnecessarily you will hurt people in your quest for it.  Successful or otherwise.

 

The practical effect of allowing gay marriage is that it FAIR and EQUAL, IT CORRECTS AND INJUSTICE.

Why do you think protecting people's feelings is more important than equal rights?

Answer that please.

I just read your last post.

As I said above, you are clearly incapable of even beginning to comprehend a position that deviates remotely from your own.  You continue to assert that different rights exist under the model I propose.  They do not.

You continue to assert that you are being "fair" and I am not.  You are incorrect. 

You seem to be making the assumption that because the majority agrees with something they are necessarily biased, you are wrong.

Frankly, your entire posting line seems to fall in with what MrStickBall is saying.  You're not truly caught up on marriage.  You're fighting for acceptance.  And your aim is misplaced.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

WessleWoggle on 22 April 2009
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
.

 

But marriage itself has simply become an unfortunate false symbol of what many gays would consider to be the straight community "accepting" them.

 

I highly disagree. Gay marriage is a symbol for equality... Nothing to do with acceptance. It's fully understandable that people don't support my orientation. What's not understandable is their personal views effecting the law.

EXACTLY!!! Gay marriage has ZERO practical effect on the lives of homosexuals, but a measurable negative effect on those who oppose it.  Finally we agree. Although I sense you still do not understand.

Why on earth should the personal views of a minority change the law, but the personal views of the many do not?  All you're able to say is that you're right.  Because you personally want something so badly, you're completely incapable of asking yourself honestly why you want it, what you could conceivably gain from it, or how badly and unnecessarily you will hurt people in your quest for it.  Successful or otherwise.

 

The practical effect of allowing gay marriage is that it FAIR and EQUAL, IT CORRECTS AND INJUSTICE.

Why do you think protecting people's feelings is more important than equal rights?

Answer that please.

I just read your last post.

As I said above, you are clearly incapable of even beginning to comprehend a position that deviates remotely from your own.  You continue to assert that different rights exist under the model I propose.  They do not.

You continue to assert that you are being "fair" and I am not.  You are incorrect.

You seem to be making the assumption that because the majority agrees with something they are necessarily biased, you are wrong.

Frankly, your entire posting line seems to fall in with what MrStickBall is saying.  You're not truly caught up on marriage.  You're fighting for acceptance.  And your aim is misplaced.

 

 

 

Tell me why protecting people's silly feelings towards a tradition is more important than equal rights.

Get off your high horse, stop insulting me, and ACTUALLY USE LOGIC TO ARGUE.

I don't give A FUCK if they accept anything. I just want EQUAL RIGHTS.

WHY IS PROTECTING PEOPLES FEELINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EQUAL RIGHTS?



starcraft on 22 April 2009
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:

I just read your last post.

As I said above, you are clearly incapable of even beginning to comprehend a position that deviates remotely from your own.  You continue to assert that different rights exist under the model I propose.  They do not.

You continue to assert that you are being "fair" and I am not.  You are incorrect.

You seem to be making the assumption that because the majority agrees with something they are necessarily biased, you are wrong.

Frankly, your entire posting line seems to fall in with what MrStickBall is saying.  You're not truly caught up on marriage.  You're fighting for acceptance.  And your aim is misplaced.

 

Tell me why protecting people's silly feelings towards a tradition is more important than equal rights.

Get off your high horse, stop insulting me, and ACTUALLY USE LOGIC TO ARGUE.

I don't give A FUCK if they accept anything. I just want EQUAL RIGHTS.

WHY IS PROTECTING PEOPLES FEELINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EQUAL RIGHTS?

Again you are missing the point.  Under the system I refer too, you have equal rights. 

What you want is more rights.  Even assuming that weren't the case, if you actually didn't give a "FUCK," you wouldn't have bothered replying.

Protecting the integrity of an institution that plays a dominant role in the lives of the vast majority of humans that inhabit the earth is more important than a meaningless and impractical piece of political oneupmanship.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

WessleWoggle on 22 April 2009
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
 

I just read your last post.

As I said above, you are clearly incapable of even beginning to comprehend a position that deviates remotely from your own.  You continue to assert that different rights exist under the model I propose.  They do not.

You continue to assert that you are being "fair" and I am not.  You are incorrect.

You seem to be making the assumption that because the majority agrees with something they are necessarily biased, you are wrong.

Frankly, your entire posting line seems to fall in with what MrStickBall is saying.  You're not truly caught up on marriage.  You're fighting for acceptance.  And your aim is misplaced.

 

Tell me why protecting people's silly feelings towards a tradition is more important than equal rights.

Get off your high horse, stop insulting me, and ACTUALLY USE LOGIC TO ARGUE.

I don't give A FUCK if they accept anything. I just want EQUAL RIGHTS.

WHY IS PROTECTING PEOPLES FEELINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EQUAL RIGHTS?

Again you are missing the point.  Under the system I refer too, you have equal rights.

What you want is more rights.  Even assuming that weren't the case, if you actually didn't give a "FUCK," you wouldn't have bothered replying.

Protecting the integrity of an institution that plays a dominant role in the lives of the vast majority of humans that inhabit the earth is more important than a meaningless and impractical piece of political oneupmanship.

 

As a homosexual I do not have the right to marry someone I'm attracted to, straight people do. How is that equal rights?

How is asking for the same right straight people get, asking for more rights?

WTF? Meaningless? The meaning IS EQUAL RIGHTS. It's not oneupsmanship, it's about equality.

 

 

 



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starcraft on 22 April 2009
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:

I just read your last post.

As I said above, you are clearly incapable of even beginning to comprehend a position that deviates remotely from your own.  You continue to assert that different rights exist under the model I propose.  They do not.

You continue to assert that you are being "fair" and I am not.  You are incorrect.

You seem to be making the assumption that because the majority agrees with something they are necessarily biased, you are wrong.

Frankly, your entire posting line seems to fall in with what MrStickBall is saying.  You're not truly caught up on marriage.  You're fighting for acceptance.  And your aim is misplaced.

 

Tell me why protecting people's silly feelings towards a tradition is more important than equal rights.

Get off your high horse, stop insulting me, and ACTUALLY USE LOGIC TO ARGUE.

I don't give A FUCK if they accept anything. I just want EQUAL RIGHTS.

WHY IS PROTECTING PEOPLES FEELINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EQUAL RIGHTS?

Again you are missing the point.  Under the system I refer too, you have equal rights.

What you want is more rights.  Even assuming that weren't the case, if you actually didn't give a "FUCK," you wouldn't have bothered replying.

Protecting the integrity of an institution that plays a dominant role in the lives of the vast majority of humans that inhabit the earth is more important than a meaningless and impractical piece of political oneupmanship.

 

As a homosexual I do not have the right to marry someone I'm attracted to, straight people do. How is that equal rights?

How is asking for the same right straight people get, asking for more rights?

WTF? Meaningless? The meaning IS EQUAL RIGHTS. It's not oneupsmanship, it's about equality.

*sigh*

You're not even attempting to understand that there are opinions outside of your own anymore.  You have no notion of what is considered to be right, equal or fair.

All you know is what you want, and you want it regardless of the cost or consequences for anyone else.  You don't even realise that you're fighting for something that would cost an enormous amount for humanity to give, whilst providing you with nothing of consequence or practicality.

This is all about you feeling entitled to something the majority feel you are not.

I feel entitled to $100 million.  Unfortunately, the rest of society disagrees with me.  And that analogy is about as relevant as your race ones.

I'm done mate.  You have no intention of even trying to understand.  That is clear before we even broach the question of whether you could understand.

I hope you find whatever peace you're looking for, and that you find a way to be happy with what is reasonable, without the determination to hurt others.

Four am here.  Night night.

 

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

WessleWoggle on 22 April 2009
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
starcraft said:
 

I just read your last post.

As I said above, you are clearly incapable of even beginning to comprehend a position that deviates remotely from your own.  You continue to assert that different rights exist under the model I propose.  They do not.

You continue to assert that you are being "fair" and I am not.  You are incorrect.

You seem to be making the assumption that because the majority agrees with something they are necessarily biased, you are wrong.

Frankly, your entire posting line seems to fall in with what MrStickBall is saying.  You're not truly caught up on marriage.  You're fighting for acceptance.  And your aim is misplaced.

 

Tell me why protecting people's silly feelings towards a tradition is more important than equal rights.

Get off your high horse, stop insulting me, and ACTUALLY USE LOGIC TO ARGUE.

I don't give A FUCK if they accept anything. I just want EQUAL RIGHTS.

WHY IS PROTECTING PEOPLES FEELINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EQUAL RIGHTS?

Again you are missing the point.  Under the system I refer too, you have equal rights.

What you want is more rights.  Even assuming that weren't the case, if you actually didn't give a "FUCK," you wouldn't have bothered replying.

Protecting the integrity of an institution that plays a dominant role in the lives of the vast majority of humans that inhabit the earth is more important than a meaningless and impractical piece of political oneupmanship.

 

As a homosexual I do not have the right to marry someone I'm attracted to, straight people do. How is that equal rights?

How is asking for the same right straight people get, asking for more rights?

WTF? Meaningless? The meaning IS EQUAL RIGHTS. It's not oneupsmanship, it's about equality.

*sigh*

You're not even attempting to understand that there are opinions outside of your own anymore.  You have no notion of what is considered to be right, equal or fair.

All you know is what you want, and you want it regardless of the cost or consequences for anyone else.  You don't even realise that you're fighting for something that would cost an enormous amount for humanity to give, whilst providing you with nothing of consequence or practicality.

This is all about you feeling entitled to something the majority feel you are not.

I feel entitled to $100 million.  Unfortunately, the rest of society disagrees with me.  And that analogy is about as relevant as your race ones.

I'm done mate.  You have no intention of even trying to understand.  That is clear before we even broach the question of whether you could understand.

Four am here.  Night night.

 

WHY ARE YOU BEING SO PRETENTIOUS?

 Why do you always insult me instead of my arguments? Telling me I'm the one who's being closed minded. Now let me say for the third time, please get off your high horse. Anyone can say "You don't understand". It's easy. I could say that to you. It helps the argument in no way.

We have different viewpoints, I don't think either of us has a lack of understanding. Why don't you directly attack my argument, that equal rights is more important than majority opinion, instead of attacking me and just using the cop out of saying that I don't understand.

If I don't understand, explain it to me...

Why is majority opinion more important than equal rights. Answer that question. It's my main point.

And anyways, DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME I'M NOT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON I'M DEBATING THIS, TO GAIN UNDERSTANDING. You have FAILED to explain the logic in your position, I HAVE EXPLAINED THE LOGIC IN MINE.

Everyone deserves equal rights, regardless of a silly tradition, regardless of the majorities opinion. That's my logic.

I understand your logic except for the all important question:

Why do you think majority opinion is more important than equal rights?



starcraft on 22 April 2009
WessleWoggle said:

WHY ARE YOU BEING SO PRETENTIOUS?

 Why do you always insult me instead of my arguments? Telling me I'm the one who's being closed minded. Now let me say for the third time, please get off your high horse. Anyone can say "You don't understand". It's easy. I could say that to you. It helps the argument in no way.

We have different viewpoints, I don't think either of us has a lack of understanding. Why don't you directly attack my argument, that equal rights is more important than majority opinion, instead of attacking me and just using the cop out of saying that I don't understand.

If I don't understand, explain it to me...

Why is majority opinion more important than equal rights. Answer that question. It's my main point.

And anyways, DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME I'M NOT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON I'M DEBATING THIS, TO GAIN UNDERSTANDING. You have FAILED to explain the logic in your position,I HAVE EXPLAINED THE LOGIC IN MINE.

Everyone deserves equal rights, regardless of a silly tradition, regardless of the majorities opinion. Why do you disagree with equal rights?

You truly have no notion of how insulting you're being do you?  You say that marriage between a man and a woman is a silly tradition.  You want it just so you can say you have it.  It has nothing to do with equality, which under my model you would have already.  My parents were married.  So were their parents.  I didnt consider it silly at all.  So why do you want something you consider silly so badly that you would demean it for all those who dont consider it silly at all?

Let me explain this very clearly.  Marriage is not a right to any union that falls outside of it's predetermined definition.  Even if it were, you already have equal rights under the proposed model.  It's just that you're less happy with them than others.  Given that, the ridiculous attempt you make at framing me as a bigot by trying to make the argument about rights versus insult (pretty ridiculous and ironic given the way you have demeaned the marriages of billions of human beings just now) is completely obsolete.

Even if it weren't, would a 'right' that is in fact not a 'right' and which would have ZERO practical benefits for the gay community be more important than avoiding hurting the lives of billions of human beings now and in the future?  No.

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

WessleWoggle on 22 April 2009
starcraft said:
WessleWoggle said:
 

WHY ARE YOU BEING SO PRETENTIOUS?

 Why do you always insult me instead of my arguments? Telling me I'm the one who's being closed minded. Now let me say for the third time, please get off your high horse. Anyone can say "You don't understand". It's easy. I could say that to you. It helps the argument in no way.

We have different viewpoints, I don't think either of us has a lack of understanding. Why don't you directly attack my argument, that equal rights is more important than majority opinion, instead of attacking me and just using the cop out of saying that I don't understand.

If I don't understand, explain it to me...

Why is majority opinion more important than equal rights. Answer that question. It's my main point.

And anyways, DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME I'M NOT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON I'M DEBATING THIS, TO GAIN UNDERSTANDING. You have FAILED to explain the logic in your position,I HAVE EXPLAINED THE LOGIC IN MINE.

Everyone deserves equal rights, regardless of a silly tradition, regardless of the majorities opinion. Why do you disagree with equal rights?

You truly have no notion of how insulting you're being do you?  You say that marriage between a man and a woman is a silly tradition.  You want it just so you can say you have it.  It has nothing to do with equality, which under my model you would have already.  My parents were married.  So were their parents.  I didnt consider it silly at all.  So why do you want something you consider silly so badly that you would demean it for all those who dont consider it silly at all?

Let me explain this very clearly.  Marriage is not a right to any union that falls outside of it's predetermined definition.  Even if it were, you already have equal rights under the proposed model.  It's just that you're less happy with them than others.  Given that, the ridiculous attempt you make at framing me as a bigot by trying to make the argument about rights versus insult (pretty ridiculous and ironic given the way you have demeaned the marriages of billions of human beings just now) is completely obsolete.

Even if it weren't, would a 'right' that is in fact not a 'right' and which would have ZERO practical benefits for the gay community be more important than avoiding hurting the lives of billions of human beings now and in the future?  No.

 

Explain to me why it's not a silly tradition. There's no reason why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry, as it does not harm the real world in any way. The real world does not include mental woe of people who are against gay marriage. How will their mental angst, harm the real world?

WTF is this 'model' you're talking about? Gays do not have to right to marry whom they're attracted to, straights do. Do you disagree with this? How can you can't possibly say they have equal rights, when they don't have the right to marry who they are attracted to?

You position is(correct me if I'm wrong): "They have equal rights because they can marry anyone of the opposite gender, just like me." Well what about hemaphrodites? They can choose to marry either gender. Why don't I deserve the same right as a hemaphrodite? Don't YOU deserve the same rights as a hemaphrodite? Both gays and straights are second class citizens compared to hemaphrodites.

How does gays getting married demean straight marriage? Isn't marriage supposed to be about love, not about feeling special because you can do something gays can't? You're treating marriage as if it's a special club instead of a legal document.

Okay, let me ask you this, if it's of zero benefit to call gay civil unions marriages, why do you think straight people deserve their unions to be called marriages? We should all have civil unions or we should all have marriages. The reason for this is equality. It doesn't matter if people consider marriages sacred, they're not. They're a social contract, and should be treated as such, and the right of the social contract should be given to all citizens, because WE GAYS DO NOT HAVE TO RIGHT TO MARRY SOMEONE WE'RE ATTRACTED TO, STRAIGHTS DO.

 

 

 



nojustno on 22 April 2009

holy fucking crap

http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200904220021?show=1