Sure you did.

"First of all, why the fuck is your family the black one!? You clearly have no comprehension of being at a disadvantage. Because if you did you would not be making any of the points that you are. "

The points I am making come from research predominatly done by black people.

How do we make wealth the same?   Well it depends how you want to go about it.

The problem is.  Since wealth distribution is disproportinate among whites...

To even things up so the percentages are the same... the distribution among blacks would have to be disproportionate.

Hence the issue.  How do you decide who ends up "lucky".  Since wealth as it grows builds... a disribution this way is the only way to get an optimal effect.  Rather then a even distribution among all african americans that has been often proposed.

Affirmitive Action doesn't make real gains.  It makes slow gains that slideback in to nothingness... while additionally breeding discontent and racism among the poor whites.    The gains... if you insist to keep treating the races differently... are painful and hard to maintain... and risk backslides.

Which really doesn't do that much since they're poor.  Though it does tend to cause problems when it comes to jobs poorer people tend to be a part off.  Like police officers and such.

Once again... not when you take into account transational assets.

If you were to take into account... White and Black people who had an equal amount of transitional assets.  You will find they tend to make the same amount of money... and tend to have the same jobs.

The fact that black people on average tend to have less transitional assets is what skews these statistics.

Look, I definitely the system needs to be upgraded. But I don't think it should be abolished. You aren't offering any solutions though kasz, you are just saying that black people don't know what to do with the money they are helped to attain through AA.
What you need to understand, is that you have no idea. Statistics cannot even begin to scratch the surface of what it's like to be an African American in today's society.
This picture perfect idea that blacks and whites are now on equal financial and emotional standing, where its OK for "every man for himself", is incredibly unrealistic.
It makes you sound very naive. It's crappy, it sucks, but it's true.
The workload of an African-American man compared to a white man is beyond your comprehension, statistics and all. It's honestly not your fault that you don't understand because you were not born into that situation.
I think you should read some things that differ with your opinions instead of reading books that you already agree with. Play devil's advocate once in a while.
I'm going to bed, and I never want to have this "discussion" again.

None of that is what I am saying.  You seem to miss the point completly.

Equity inequality HAS GROWN since the Civil Rights era.

That is what I am saying. 

Affirmitive Action does not help this... all it does is create minor racism and make people complacent.  It looks like things have gotten better when it comes to the income gap.  They have gotten worse.  Despite people being a lot racist then they used to be.

The ways to fix this would be.

A)  Greatly raise the estate tax... this slows down transitional wealth and would bring things back to average.

B) Come up with a measure... by which money is distributed to black people in a way that is consistant with national wealth.  A one time "slavery reprerations"  lottery.  This while the most effective would be very politically incorrect for numerous reasons.

C)  Pass laws that make transitive wealth less of a factor.   Make it so that parents for example can't give their kids assets for loans, make school districts nation wide random to where your kid is assigned... this kind of stuff.

D) Pass laws that provide transivive wealth.  Instead of quotas for example.  African Americans that are of the same income level get so much of a "transivtive grant" from the government for money down to buy a home and get a home loan in a better neighberhood.

E) Replace income tax with wealth tax.

All Affirmitive action does is try and bail water out of a boat rather then fixing the holes.  Furthermore you use other poor people as a bucket.  Lots of whom had nothing to do with the transitive wealth gap in the first place and are also victims of a lack of transitive wealth.

Also... i find it amusing how you say... "The statistics don't lie."

Yet then... when the statistics prove you wrong you say...

"The statistics don't scratch the surface."

You can run from the debate all you want.  But the trtuth is.  The problem largely concerning black people now is a wealth issue.

Unlike... women.

This racial wealth gap accounts for many of the racial differences in socioeconomic achievement that have persisted in the post-civil rights era. When we compare black and white families who have the same income and net worth, we find that African-American kids are more likely to graduate from high school than whites and are just as likely to complete college. And when we compare individuals who grew up in families with the same economic resources--income and wealth--we find that the wage gap between blacks and whites disappears and that African-Americans are just as likely as Anglos to be working full time. But among the poor, a lack of assets makes blacks more likely to rely on welfare.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010326/conley

Stacey Jones, an African-American woman with a graduate degree and a solidly middle-class job, describes a common bind for minority parents: "I am, in effect, priced out of homebuying in good school districts," she says. "This, in turn, makes it difficult for me to pay more for housing, since I am spending a good deal of my income on education for my children." For much of the growing black middle class, a lack of assets means living from paycheck to paycheck, being trapped in a job or a neighborhood that is less beneficial in the long run, or not being able to send one's kids to top colleges. Income provides for day-to-day, week-to-week expenses; wealth is the stuff that upward mobility is made of. Equality of opportunity cannot be achieved under unequal conditions (such as differential access to wealth). Indeed, whether the parents enjoy the American dream of the house, the car and the 401k is one of the best predictors of whether a child will have a chance to achieve the same.

Kasz is right, it is about wealth:

My father begs to differ.  He hauled ass up the ranks in the air force for 12 years up to E-7 before AA came along.  If you don't know they promote based on a scoring system (or they did at the time) Then suddenly with maxed out test scores, maxed out time in service, maxed points from medals, maxed out time in grade, several recommendations from senior officers, etc...he was passed up for 6 years running right as they started to implement AA....despite his extreme overqualification for the promotion.  In the meantime he was given the command positions of an E-8 while still holding the rank of an E-7 and had every bit of responsibility without any of the respect or recognition the he had earned with it.  After 6 years of cleaning up the mess caused by unqualified people who were shuttled up the ranks to fill quotas he took the early retirement offer for his own sanity.  The only reason he stayed in that long was because his CO knew the situation the same as he did and "managed" the folks who they were given in place of what should have been very well qualified staff.  Not all were out of their leaque or even incompetent mind you..they were just shuttled up the ranks so fast there was simply no way they were going to be able to have the broad and numerous skillsets these positions demand.

Oddly enough his CO was able to work his way up in the ranks despite his "disability" (which to me is what AA implies that skin color is)...oh did I not mention his CO was black?  Yeah apparently knowing what you're doing and getting the job done is a pretty good way to get promoted and get ahead in the military and life in general.  Who knew? /sarcasm

I think folks like yourself see the "on-paper" ideas and never see the reality of the mess it causes.  It's a lot like communism in that it would work in a perfect world...but in a perfect world there wouldn't be a need for it anyways...

Actually I think you missed the idea that I was deliberately acknowledging my source as anecdotal.  My point is that anecdotes are better than no source at all.

Where I'm mixed up is that my acknowledgment of my anecdotal evidence is less meaningful for you than your lack of any evidence?  How, can you say that I am the one who doesn't get it then? Sorry, not to be rude, but that seems pretty backwards.  Do you have anything more concrete than what I've put forward to support your 20% number?  After all I think the default assumption here has to be that they aren't racist and that it would be up to you to show that they are....I hope that isn't a controversial position to take because throwing around the racism word without very good cause to do so is pretty dangerous and harmful imo (I think you would agree honestly).

As for your point having nothing to do with racism...then why try to say 20% of these folks are probably racists?  If I'm being honest it sounds like you're backing away from the statement to me.  Which is fine..if you meant that 20% were subconciously racists I'll take your word for it but at that point I think the obvious question is "Is that any different from the normal population anyways?".

I think the danger is that you say racism one way, people hear it another, and the effect is unfair marganlization.

I'm very aware of the studies actually, but as has already been pointed out is that subconscious racism is in no way what we're talking about here.  What Garofalo and others are referring to when they talk about racists at these events is the overt ugly racism.  I also think it is important to be explicitly clear that you don't think these people are being overtly racist...for your own sake I mean.  Because when you say racist...even if you mean subconscious racism..people hear the meaning as overt racism.

Why do we "kind of have to" take this into account?  How does unequal treatment mean we should continue unequal treatment...but just reversed?  I simply do not get this logic at all.  Racism is racism is racism...when its whites turning blacks down for skin color and when its blacks turning whites down for skin color.  The whole point of fighting racism is to say no more decisions based on skin color...so why institute a system that legitimizes racism...because that is exactly what AA is.

To me AA is a monstrous policy based in some very cruel and tortured logic.  It's frightening that people can seriously go from the civil rights movement into believing in AA is a positive thing in under 20 years....its the same damn thing in reverse folks.  Affirmative Action IS racism...plain and simple...RACISM.  I mean the overt kind.

I'd love to know how one act of racism justifies another.

Once you've seen the effects of it first hand there is no mistaking it, the repurcussions of this horrific policy still effect my dad to this day.

PS - Yeah it pisses me off quite a bit, but I have a damn good reason for it to piss me off and I don't try to hide that fact at all.