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Forums - General - Arguments Against God

highwaystar101 on 14 April 2009

Hmm, people haven't replied to my points. Kinda hoping someone would.Ah well.



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WessleWoggle on 14 April 2009
786_ali said:
alekth said:
JRPG said:
appolose said:
Prove to me anything exists.
Actually, don't, I've been arguing about that idea for 2 weeks with Final-Fan now :P

 

Trying to prove wether God exists or not is like trying to prove to a blind person that colors exist.

If you can't see it you either have faith thats it exists or you refuse to belive it exists.

If I find an unicorn in the woods and bring it along (and prove it's not a hoax), the existance of unicorns will be proven. Maybe someone who believed in unicorns before seeing the real one will have their faith confirmed, and people who deny unicorns will be forced to admit that they do exist. There might or might not be any scientific explanation for a while on them.
And especially if you do consider the bible etc to have been written by man, none of these gods is more likely to exist than unicorns.


Well, that's one sort of proof.


A blind person can be convinced about the existance of colours even if they can't see them because all the scientific explanation and proof on how this works are present. That's another sort of proof.

 

For gods so far, we have nothing.

 

The Q'uran is not man-made. That is a fact, as Prophet Muhammed was not literate. In the Q'uran many things have been stated which are being discovered now after thousands of years. I know for a fact that Allah exists.

 

 

Knowing your god exists is useless in argumentation if you can't prove it.



alekth on 14 April 2009
JRPG said:

 

What if the unicorn had no physical form? Could you still find one? No of course not.

 

Endless loop, BTW.

Unicorns are defined by their form, they have a damn horn on their forehead, thats why they are unicorns.
The christian god made man in his image.
Zeus had sex with mortal women.

You're further pushing this into god being some idea with no inviolvement, the texts about the various gods were written by man without any word from god, he/they can't be seen, heard, can't manifest themselves... in other words what is left of the notion of a deity anyway?

If all along you just wanted to reiterate that religion is about faith, that was pretty obvious all along. The argument was whether it was justified faith and in this recent branch of whether an existing god can be confirmed to exist.



ManusJustus on 14 April 2009

mmnin said:

...but is that really Him punishing them or them punishing themselves...

So God created mankind, made the universe and science so that it would appear that He does not exist.  Then he decides to punish those he created for not worshipping him.

Why does God want us to worship him?  If you created a computer program with artifical intelligence, would you want it to worship you.  If you created an ant farm, would you want the ants to worship you.  No, its completely ridiculous for you to want to be worshipped.

However, in 5000 BC, when man created the idea of God, men desired to be worshipped.  It was a sign of power, and men wanted power so kings and pharoahs made themselves gods that were worshiped by their subjects.  Today, wanting to be worshipped is considered ridiculous, society has advanced beyond that stage.  In a sense, man is more moral than God now.



luinil on 14 April 2009

For this argument, since I keep coming back to it... There seem to be two arguments I see, Manus' "Why does God want us to worship him?" and Wessle's "If a loving God exists, why is there suffering?"

I will simply defer to two books, but first a disclaimer: I did not read the full book in either case. To Manus' Question: Read Desiring God by John Piper. To Wessle's question: Read The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis. Better minds for better arguments.



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Tag: luinil - "Liberalism is a mental disorder." - Thanks fkusumot!
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WessleWoggle on 14 April 2009
JRPG said:
WessleWoggle said:
JRPG said:
WessleWoggle said:
JRPG said:
alekth said:
 if god exists it shouldn't be impossible to prove it.

Using logic to try to prove that something supernatural exists or does not exist is illlogical.

Define the supernatural. It's a useless, irrelivant concept. Everything is natural. Even if there is 'magic' or 'ghosts' it's not supernatural, it has a source, a cause.

Also, logic is the only way things can be proven, your statement makes no sense.

 

Why would logic apply to something that is not logical? You are trying to apply logic and rules to something no one undersatnds or probably ever will. You can't seem to grasp the concept of what God is. God is something you can't explain and thus will never be proven or disproved...especially with logic. Why waste your time doing it? What do you gain?

 

What makes you think it's not logical? You have to proove it's illogical to make the claim that it's not logical.

What makes you think God can't be explained? That's not proven either.

 

 

What makes you think he can be explained?

 

 

 

Nothing, there's no proof either way that god can or can't be explained. You stated that god can't be explained as a certainty, not a doubt.

But, if you want to learn how god can be explained look up gnosticism or something.



786_ali on 14 April 2009
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
alekth said:
JRPG said:
appolose said:
Prove to me anything exists.
Actually, don't, I've been arguing about that idea for 2 weeks with Final-Fan now :P

 

Trying to prove wether God exists or not is like trying to prove to a blind person that colors exist.

If you can't see it you either have faith thats it exists or you refuse to belive it exists.

If I find an unicorn in the woods and bring it along (and prove it's not a hoax), the existance of unicorns will be proven. Maybe someone who believed in unicorns before seeing the real one will have their faith confirmed, and people who deny unicorns will be forced to admit that they do exist. There might or might not be any scientific explanation for a while on them.
And especially if you do consider the bible etc to have been written by man, none of these gods is more likely to exist than unicorns.


Well, that's one sort of proof.


A blind person can be convinced about the existance of colours even if they can't see them because all the scientific explanation and proof on how this works are present. That's another sort of proof.

 

For gods so far, we have nothing.

 

The Q'uran is not man-made. That is a fact, as Prophet Muhammed was not literate. In the Q'uran many things have been stated which are being discovered now after thousands of years. I know for a fact that Allah exists.

 

 

Knowing your god exists is useless in argumentation if you can't prove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOS9q77I3oU

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

 



Initiating social expirement #928719281

786_ali on 14 April 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOS9q77I3oU

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

no one's replying? hmmm...



Initiating social expirement #928719281

WessleWoggle on 14 April 2009
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
alekth said:
JRPG said:
appolose said:
Prove to me anything exists.
Actually, don't, I've been arguing about that idea for 2 weeks with Final-Fan now :P

 

Trying to prove wether God exists or not is like trying to prove to a blind person that colors exist.

If you can't see it you either have faith thats it exists or you refuse to belive it exists.

If I find an unicorn in the woods and bring it along (and prove it's not a hoax), the existance of unicorns will be proven. Maybe someone who believed in unicorns before seeing the real one will have their faith confirmed, and people who deny unicorns will be forced to admit that they do exist. There might or might not be any scientific explanation for a while on them.
And especially if you do consider the bible etc to have been written by man, none of these gods is more likely to exist than unicorns.


Well, that's one sort of proof.


A blind person can be convinced about the existance of colours even if they can't see them because all the scientific explanation and proof on how this works are present. That's another sort of proof.

 

For gods so far, we have nothing.

 

The Q'uran is not man-made. That is a fact, as Prophet Muhammed was not literate. In the Q'uran many things have been stated which are being discovered now after thousands of years. I know for a fact that Allah exists.

 

 

Knowing your god exists is useless in argumentation if you can't prove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOS9q77I3oU

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

 

I haven't watched the video yet, but I have some things to say about the web page.

"At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat"

False. Few people thought that.

"The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation."

False, it's not proven that they didn't know those things. There were numerous theories back then, just as there are now. Also, who's to say the knowledge came from God, and not a higher lifeform from outer space, or a spirit being that is not all powerful?

"It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine."

False.

"The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’."

False, that's not the only logical answer. You don't need to have made the whole universe to know things.

"Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. "

Francis Bacon is false. In depth study of science doesn't make someone a believer. In depth knowledge of science should make you an agnostic.

 

 

 

 



ManusJustus on 14 April 2009
786_ali said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOS9q77I3oU

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

no one's replying? hmmm...

The Greeks knew the world was round (and even accuratley measured its diameter) long before Islam or Christianity came around.  Before that, man thought the world was round because of other ideas, such the nature of eclipses (spheres always have round shadows).

The reason so many people thought the world was flat was because the Babylonians thought the world was flat, then the Hebrew adopted ideas from them and put them in the Bible, then Europe converted to Christianity and kept those stories.