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Forums - General - Arguments Against God

WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOS9q77I3oU

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

no one's replying? hmmm...

About the video, what makes any of those verses specific enough to make you think they are a reference to scientific theories?

If you start with the presumption that a book has a message, you'll find one.

 

You're not going to believe are you? No matter what is said, you won't believe it

 

 

 

Nope, I will believe when something is evident by it's self, not evident only when you have a certain presumption.

If the Quran said, everything was in one point then started to expand, hey, then I might say it has some vague reference to the big bang. Does it say that?

But, even if it did have a vague reference to something from science, how does it prove it came from the God who created everything, and not an alien or spirit?

The Q'uran says that it came from Allah. Prophet Muhammad was illieterate.

 

Where do you get that from.

Even if Muhammad was illiterate, how does it prove he got his knowledge from the creator of everything, and not an alien, or spirit, or lesser god?

 

Everybody with any knowledge about the Prophet knows that he was illiterate. Google it if you do not believe me. The Q'uran states that Allah has sent down this book and that Allah is the only God. If it wasn't Allah who sent it down then it would not say such things

 

The Al-Jilwah, states that:

"I will not give my rights to other gods. I have allowed the creation of four substances, four times and four corners; because they are necessary things for creatures."

"No god has a right to interfere in my affairs, and I have made it an imperative rule that everyone shall refrain from worshipping all gods. All of the books of those who are without are altered by them; and they have declined from them, although they were written by the prophets and the apostles."

"The books of Jews, Christians and Muslims, as of those who are without, accept in a sense, i.e., so far as they agree with and conform to my statutes. Whatsoever is contrary to these, they have altered; do not accept it. Three things are against me and I hate three things. But those who keep my secrets shall receive the fulfillment of my promises. Those who suffer for my sake I will surely reward in one of the worlds."

"I lead to the straight path without a revealed book; I direct aright my beloved and chosen ones by unseen means. "

"All of the books of those who are without are altered by them; and they have declined from them, although they were written by the prophets and the apostles. That there are interpolations is seen in the fact that each sect endeavors to prove that the others are wrong and to destroy their books."

 

Why should I believe your holy book, Quran, over this holy book, Al-Jilwah?

 

 

First if all, regarding the Bible. In Islam we believe that Islam, Christianity and Jewism were the same religions. However, with the passage of time the Torat and Bible were changed slowly by people to suit their own needs. Thus there is now a difference in religions, even though the god is the same.

Regarding the Al-Jiwalah, I haven't heard of it. Does the Bible really mention it?

 

Okay, then.

I didn't mean to imply that the bible mentioned the Al-Jilwah, I wrote that wrong.

The Al-Jilwah is a book similar to the Quran, except it's much shorter, and only has the important stuff in it.

The Al-Jilwah differs from the Quran in that,  Iblis/Shaitan/Satan, was rewarded for choosing the disobey God when he told him to bow down to Adam, instead of being punished for it. Personally I think this makes more sense.

 

Basically, the al-jilwah is a book for the worship of the Shaitan. It was revealed to no prophet, there is no proof of it being sent down by God and it fails to give proof of its credibilty. Disobeying God and being rewarded for it, doesn't make sense at all.

 



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786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOS9q77I3oU

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm

no one's replying? hmmm...

About the video, what makes any of those verses specific enough to make you think they are a reference to scientific theories?

If you start with the presumption that a book has a message, you'll find one.

 

You're not going to believe are you? No matter what is said, you won't believe it

 

 

 

Nope, I will believe when something is evident by it's self, not evident only when you have a certain presumption.

If the Quran said, everything was in one point then started to expand, hey, then I might say it has some vague reference to the big bang. Does it say that?

But, even if it did have a vague reference to something from science, how does it prove it came from the God who created everything, and not an alien or spirit?

The Q'uran says that it came from Allah. Prophet Muhammad was illieterate.

 

Where do you get that from.

Even if Muhammad was illiterate, how does it prove he got his knowledge from the creator of everything, and not an alien, or spirit, or lesser god?

 

Everybody with any knowledge about the Prophet knows that he was illiterate. Google it if you do not believe me. The Q'uran states that Allah has sent down this book and that Allah is the only God. If it wasn't Allah who sent it down then it would not say such things

 

The Al-Jilwah, states that:

"I will not give my rights to other gods. I have allowed the creation of four substances, four times and four corners; because they are necessary things for creatures."

"No god has a right to interfere in my affairs, and I have made it an imperative rule that everyone shall refrain from worshipping all gods. All of the books of those who are without are altered by them; and they have declined from them, although they were written by the prophets and the apostles."

"The books of Jews, Christians and Muslims, as of those who are without, accept in a sense, i.e., so far as they agree with and conform to my statutes. Whatsoever is contrary to these, they have altered; do not accept it. Three things are against me and I hate three things. But those who keep my secrets shall receive the fulfillment of my promises. Those who suffer for my sake I will surely reward in one of the worlds."

"I lead to the straight path without a revealed book; I direct aright my beloved and chosen ones by unseen means. "

"All of the books of those who are without are altered by them; and they have declined from them, although they were written by the prophets and the apostles. That there are interpolations is seen in the fact that each sect endeavors to prove that the others are wrong and to destroy their books."

 

Why should I believe your holy book, Quran, over this holy book, Al-Jilwah?

 

 

First if all, regarding the Bible. In Islam we believe that Islam, Christianity and Jewism were the same religions. However, with the passage of time the Torat and Bible were changed slowly by people to suit their own needs. Thus there is now a difference in religions, even though the god is the same.

Regarding the Al-Jiwalah, I haven't heard of it. Does the Bible really mention it?

 

Okay, then.

I didn't mean to imply that the bible mentioned the Al-Jilwah, I wrote that wrong.

The Al-Jilwah is a book similar to the Quran, except it's much shorter, and only has the important stuff in it.

The Al-Jilwah differs from the Quran in that,  Iblis/Shaitan/Satan, was rewarded for choosing the disobey God when he told him to bow down to Adam, instead of being punished for it. Personally I think this makes more sense.

 

Basically, the al-jilwah is a book for the worship of the Shaitan. It was revealed to no prophet, there is no proof of it being sent down by God and it fails to give proof of its credibilty. Disobeying God and being rewarded for it, doesn't make sense at all.

 

Wrong, it was revealed to the Yazidi's prophet Sheik Adi.

Of course it wasn't sent down by god, it was sent down by Shaitan.

Disobeying God and being rewarded for it does make sense to me. Why should Shaitan have bowed down to adam, when Shaitan was made of fire/light, and Adam was made from clay/dust?

 



Shaitan was not an angel. I think it is stated in the Bible that he was an angel, instead he was actually a jinn. Allah ordered his creations to bow to Adam, one of these creations was the Shaitan. Shaitan had been given more powers and abilities than the angels, however due to hubris he thought that these powers made him as powerful or more powerful than Allah. Thus he refused to obey Allah. This is why he was punished.

Regarding why he was punished and asked to this, Allah's creations were ordered to this because it was a test for them to see whether or not they truly worshipped and obeyed Allah. Shaitan failed and was therefore punished.



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786_ali said:

Shaitan was not an angel. I think it is stated in the Bible that he was an angel, instead he was actually a jinn. Allah ordered his creations to prostrate to Adam, one of these creations was the Shaitan. Shaitan had been given more powers and abilities than the angels, however due to hubris he thought that these powers made him as powerful or more powerful than Allah. Thus he refused to obey Allah. This is why he was punished.

Regarding why he was punished and asked to this, Allah's creations were ordered to this because it was a test for them to see whether or not they truly worshipped and obeyed Allah. Shaitan failed and was therefore punished.

 

 

Hmm, I don't remember saying Shaitan was an angel. I didn't say what he was. I know he's a jinn in the Quran.

Shaitan refused to obey Allah because what Allah ordered was unfair. This was a test to Shaitan to see if he was a mindless drone or an individual. He was rewarded for using logic rather than faith, not submitting to an unfair order.

I don't see why it's said that Shaitan is full of hubris or thinks he's as powerful or more powerful than Allah.

Can you explain this to me?



WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:

Shaitan was not an angel. I think it is stated in the Bible that he was an angel, instead he was actually a jinn. Allah ordered his creations to prostrate to Adam, one of these creations was the Shaitan. Shaitan had been given more powers and abilities than the angels, however due to hubris he thought that these powers made him as powerful or more powerful than Allah. Thus he refused to obey Allah. This is why he was punished.

Regarding why he was punished and asked to this, Allah's creations were ordered to this because it was a test for them to see whether or not they truly worshipped and obeyed Allah. Shaitan failed and was therefore punished.

 

 

Hmm, I don't remember saying Shaitan was an angel. I didn't say what he was. I know he's a jinn in the Quran.

Shaitan refused to obey Allah because what Allah ordered was unfair. This was a test to Shaitan to see if he was a mindless drone or an individual. He was rewarded for using logic rather than faith, not submitting to an unfair order.

I don't see why it's said that Shaitan is full of hubris or thinks he's as powerful or more powerful than Allah.

Can you explain this to me?

The order was not unfair. It was an order to show that he obeyed and worshipped Allah, and to show respect to Adam. The proof of his hubris is that he disobeyed Allah whom we must submit to at all costs, and his arrogance was shown by him thinking of himself as better than Adam.

Allah never asks us to hurt ourselves or do anything wrong.Proof of this is Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), who was ordered through a dream to slaughter his own son. This was a test for him. He chose to obey Allah, and just before the knife struck his son (Ismael) he was transformed into a goat and he survived.

Thus if he was a believer of Allah, he would have obeyed Allah

 



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786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:

Shaitan was not an angel. I think it is stated in the Bible that he was an angel, instead he was actually a jinn. Allah ordered his creations to prostrate to Adam, one of these creations was the Shaitan. Shaitan had been given more powers and abilities than the angels, however due to hubris he thought that these powers made him as powerful or more powerful than Allah. Thus he refused to obey Allah. This is why he was punished.

Regarding why he was punished and asked to this, Allah's creations were ordered to this because it was a test for them to see whether or not they truly worshipped and obeyed Allah. Shaitan failed and was therefore punished.

 

 

Hmm, I don't remember saying Shaitan was an angel. I didn't say what he was. I know he's a jinn in the Quran.

Shaitan refused to obey Allah because what Allah ordered was unfair. This was a test to Shaitan to see if he was a mindless drone or an individual. He was rewarded for using logic rather than faith, not submitting to an unfair order.

I don't see why it's said that Shaitan is full of hubris or thinks he's as powerful or more powerful than Allah.

Can you explain this to me?

The order was not unfair. It was an order to show that he obeyed and worshipped Allah, and to show respect to Adam. The proof of his hubris is that he disobeyed Allah whom we must submit to at all costs, and his arrogance was shown by him thinking of himself as better than Adam.

Allah never asks us to hurt ourselves or do anything wrong.Proof of this is Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), who was ordered through a dream to slaughter his own son. This was a test for him. He chose to obey Allah, and just before the knife struck his son (Ismael) he was transformed into a goat and he survived.

Thus if he was a believer of Allah, he would have obeyed Allah

 

I disagree, the order was unfair. How is it fair to bow to someone who's your inferior? Just because Allah said so is a bad reason. Besides, what was Allah trying to do by making all bow to Adam? Give him a superiority complex?

Allah asked Shaitan to go against logic and follow his order to bow down to Adam. That is unfair.

A superior being should not have to bow down to an inferior or equal. No one should have to bow down to anyone.

Also, The Yezidi people say Allah told Shaitan never to bow down to anything, so he wasn't going against Allahs orders, Allah presented him with a contradiction. He had to make a choice, the Yezidi people think he made the right choice.

Also, it's impossible for Shaitan not to believe in Allah. Or did you mean obedient to Allah?



WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:

Shaitan was not an angel. I think it is stated in the Bible that he was an angel, instead he was actually a jinn. Allah ordered his creations to prostrate to Adam, one of these creations was the Shaitan. Shaitan had been given more powers and abilities than the angels, however due to hubris he thought that these powers made him as powerful or more powerful than Allah. Thus he refused to obey Allah. This is why he was punished.

Regarding why he was punished and asked to this, Allah's creations were ordered to this because it was a test for them to see whether or not they truly worshipped and obeyed Allah. Shaitan failed and was therefore punished.

 

 

Hmm, I don't remember saying Shaitan was an angel. I didn't say what he was. I know he's a jinn in the Quran.

Shaitan refused to obey Allah because what Allah ordered was unfair. This was a test to Shaitan to see if he was a mindless drone or an individual. He was rewarded for using logic rather than faith, not submitting to an unfair order.

I don't see why it's said that Shaitan is full of hubris or thinks he's as powerful or more powerful than Allah.

Can you explain this to me?

The order was not unfair. It was an order to show that he obeyed and worshipped Allah, and to show respect to Adam. The proof of his hubris is that he disobeyed Allah whom we must submit to at all costs, and his arrogance was shown by him thinking of himself as better than Adam.

Allah never asks us to hurt ourselves or do anything wrong.Proof of this is Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), who was ordered through a dream to slaughter his own son. This was a test for him. He chose to obey Allah, and just before the knife struck his son (Ismael) he was transformed into a goat and he survived.

Thus if he was a believer of Allah, he would have obeyed Allah

 

I disagree, the order was unfair. How is it fair to bow to someone who's your inferior? Just because Allah said so is a bad reason. Besides, what was Allah trying to do by making all bow to Adam? Give him a superiority complex?

Allah asked Shaitan to go against logic and follow his order to bow down to Adam. That is unfair.

A superior being should not have to bow down to an inferior or equal. No one should have to bow down to anyone.

Also, The Yezidi people say Allah told Shaitan never to bow down to anything, so he wasn't going against Allahs orders, Allah presented him with a contradiction. He had to make a choice, the Yezidi people think he made the right choice.

Also, it's impossible for Shaitan not to believe in Allah. Or did you mean obedient to Allah?

Humans are superior to jinn. And, yes, I meant obedient to Allah.

You don't happen to be a devil-worshipper do you?



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786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:
WessleWoggle said:
786_ali said:

Shaitan was not an angel. I think it is stated in the Bible that he was an angel, instead he was actually a jinn. Allah ordered his creations to prostrate to Adam, one of these creations was the Shaitan. Shaitan had been given more powers and abilities than the angels, however due to hubris he thought that these powers made him as powerful or more powerful than Allah. Thus he refused to obey Allah. This is why he was punished.

Regarding why he was punished and asked to this, Allah's creations were ordered to this because it was a test for them to see whether or not they truly worshipped and obeyed Allah. Shaitan failed and was therefore punished.

 

 

Hmm, I don't remember saying Shaitan was an angel. I didn't say what he was. I know he's a jinn in the Quran.

Shaitan refused to obey Allah because what Allah ordered was unfair. This was a test to Shaitan to see if he was a mindless drone or an individual. He was rewarded for using logic rather than faith, not submitting to an unfair order.

I don't see why it's said that Shaitan is full of hubris or thinks he's as powerful or more powerful than Allah.

Can you explain this to me?

The order was not unfair. It was an order to show that he obeyed and worshipped Allah, and to show respect to Adam. The proof of his hubris is that he disobeyed Allah whom we must submit to at all costs, and his arrogance was shown by him thinking of himself as better than Adam.

Allah never asks us to hurt ourselves or do anything wrong.Proof of this is Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), who was ordered through a dream to slaughter his own son. This was a test for him. He chose to obey Allah, and just before the knife struck his son (Ismael) he was transformed into a goat and he survived.

Thus if he was a believer of Allah, he would have obeyed Allah

 

I disagree, the order was unfair. How is it fair to bow to someone who's your inferior? Just because Allah said so is a bad reason. Besides, what was Allah trying to do by making all bow to Adam? Give him a superiority complex?

Allah asked Shaitan to go against logic and follow his order to bow down to Adam. That is unfair.

A superior being should not have to bow down to an inferior or equal. No one should have to bow down to anyone.

Also, The Yezidi people say Allah told Shaitan never to bow down to anything, so he wasn't going against Allahs orders, Allah presented him with a contradiction. He had to make a choice, the Yezidi people think he made the right choice.

Also, it's impossible for Shaitan not to believe in Allah. Or did you mean obedient to Allah?

Humans are superior to jinn. And, yes, I meant obedient to Allah.

You don't happen to be a devil-worshipper do you?

 

 

Even if humans are superior to jinn, how does that reconcile the fact that, according the the Yezidi people, Allah told Shaitan never to bow down to anything?

Even if humans are superior to jinn, why was it fair for Allah to tell Shaitan to bow down?

I'm not a devil worshipper, I'm agnostic. I enjoy reading things about theology, religion, and philosophy. But I do think the Al-Jilwah and the stories of the Yezidi people make more sense than the Quran. Since I don't know if any religions are true, I judge them by logic. Devil worship, the Yezidi version, is more logical in it's back story.

 



http://www.haqislam.org/prophet-adam/

The reason is there. Remember that bowing is not the same as prostrating. A bow is merely a show of respect, humans bow to each other, whilst prostration is a sign of inferiority and worship.

Such books are false, they are a method for the Shaitan to misguide humans.



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WessleWoggle said:
Strategyking92 said:
ManusJustus said:
Strategyking92 said:
I don't think you really grasp the concept of the christian god.
God said he created man in his image.. So god is human-like if you believe in the bible. However, he is also presented as an omniscient being, while having interest in a select few individuals. You could, however, make the argument that he needed to have interest in these individuals for people to have faith that he exists through religion spreading. As for god being cruel in the old testament, he was only testing humanity and punishing the wicked.
He continues to punish the wicked in the new testament, but not in his godly form.

And since christianity, judaism, and islam make almost all of the major world religions, I am confident with the "everything happens for a reason" belief over pure dumb luck.

Man's image came from billions of years of evolution.   And I dont think God (assuming he created the universe) would be made of matter or energy (since he created them) so its hard to think of him as actually having an image anyway.  Unless he created matter and energy them molded himself into some form of it, but why would he do that?

Why would God's personality change from Old to New Testament?  Wouldnt an all powerful and all knowing being not need to learn from experience?

 

 

Well it could vary I suppose. Who's to say the creation story didn't happen in some form? While i'm not so sure about that, the evolution theory, and the creation theory have possibilities in them that humans were made in gods image. Well, they don't refute them. I mean, what if humans gradually changed into gods image? But because god doesn't have a physical image, you might compare his form to a cloud. Up close it looks like nothing, but from far away it might look like a dragon or something. I just don't think anybody can possibly imagine the big picture of a god, or how one can exist.

I think his personality stayed the same, it's just that he did not need to test free will, or the events aren't mentioned in the NT, due to the focus being on jesus and his message of peace. Although you can still find references where gods will is enacted.

Here's another question also: Since god is omniscient, wouldn't he need to know his own limits (or in humans case, free will). And since he is omniscient, he both would and would not know. Why would he create humans in the first place? All I can come up with is that god has a sort of self awareness, and that since humans are created in his image, he learns while being omniscient. You know, like when a guy pokes a dead cow with a stick even though he knows the cow is dead. Pointless, really, but what is existance something happening?

You seem to assume that the god of everything, directly made humans... Baseless assumtion.

We could have been created by a lesser god or alien race.

 

 

Nope. There is one god, since he would have to make those "lesser gods". But a god cannot be made by a god, so those lesser gods would not be gods. It's like saying (for a lack of a better analogy) an immovable rock can make another immovable rock in the same place.

And while I do think alien life is possible (I actually hope it exists) I don't think it's possible for them to have that high level of technology. I also just that it sounds ridiculous.



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Obligatory dick measuring Gaming Laptop Specs: Sager NP8270-GTX: 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LC, nVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M, Intel Core i7-4700MQ, 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3, 750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive