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Forums - General - Is abortion a crime against humanity?

Nirvana_Nut85 on 14 April 2009
WessleWoggle said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:

 

 

If the fetus lacks the ability to make choices due to lack of brain functions then why when an abortion is bieng performed the fetus will literally try to move away from the tools and avoid bieng killed. Why does it's heart rate increse, while this is happening. It must have to have some sense of self preservation or enough brain function to try avoid death. Therefore should that unborn baby not have a legal right to be able the chance to be given life?

I believe in methods of preventing unwanted pregnancies. Mind you,if that person is to become pregnant and does not want the baby, there are many people who want to adopt, and that is the better solution. If you really think about it, there's no reason why a pregnancy should not be carried out when there are more than enough options for the mother after the child is born.

See in a scenario like that, it becomes a hard choice to make. The scenario is rare, but it still happens. If it was me having the baby (if I was a woman) and I had someone able to take care of the baby then I wouldn't think twice about giving up my life for it.But thats me not everyone. In a scenario where it will 100% cause death to the mother then I would let her make that choice. That is the only justification in which a mother "should" be able to terminate a pregnancy.

Fuck, it's not being lazy by putting pictures. I never assumed you or Mafoo would change thier opinion over it. There are people as I have stated (mostly younger) who are prochoice and have know idea what the procedure is or how it looks, or what is done to the baby. That is why I posted them, for the uninformed. In all honesty the irresponsible bitch should not have the right to put her own selfish needs before the life of an unborn baby. An unborn baby is still a human being. It is still alive and living. We do not and should not have the right to be able to end that life.

Now, just so it doesn't sound like were just blaming the mother's who abort thier unborn babies. I think the piece of shit guy's who put pressure on thier girlfriends to have an aboprtion if they get pregnant should have a bat taken to thier heads.

 

 

 

 

Well that unborn baby in your scenario should have a chance to live because it's developed enough to know it's getting harmed. Those types of abortions are horrible, because the way we go about them is horrible. Hopefully the vaporizing nanobots will be invented so the fetus feels no pain of panic.

If you really think about it, you'd know pregnancy sucks, big time, for some women. You'd know they have lifes to live, and don't feel like carrying around someone nature tried to force on them...

If you had the option to remove a growth that gave you cramps, made you hormonal and crazy, made you gain weight, then made you have to go through a lot of pain to squeeze the growth out your vagina, wouldn't you have it removed?

That's the situation for them. They have to pick between ending a conciousness that has no dreams, aspirations, hopes, or memories(other than dark, warm, and growing), or they can choose to suffer through it just to add another consumer into the world.

Let me ask you, what's so precious about human life, if the life doesn't know what life is?

 

Yes, I know how pregnancy is, I have 2 beautiful daughters (yah 23 is young but yah...) I was with my girlfriend through the whole thing and I saw how hard it is, yet at the same time ,although woman have to go throught that during a pregnancy, I don't believe that that should give the justification to end a human life. To be fully honest when it's your baby you see being born (as grosse as the procedures on t.v look) it'sa beautiful; thing that was worth the whole 9 months of pains,ect (from her perspective).

Human life is precious, it's just that we take it for granted. also how do we know that they baby doesn't have a concept of what life is? Brain waives start (and correct me if I'm wrong) around 6 weeks (though limited) into the pregnancy. Now I look at it from a spiritual aspect which alot of people don't, being a huge reason why I think that life is precious. I believe we all have souls.

 

 

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

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Nirvana_Nut85 on 14 April 2009
Rath said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
 

Not really. It all depends what country you live in. The U.S for example has some split decisions on abortion. It's not a major majority or one sided (a list of polls with interesting data) http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm.

Actually it has everything to do with population control and eugenics. Research trhe people who founded planned parenthood. If you really think abortion is legal because governments give a shit about a woman's right then your sadly mistaken.

 

It is a living human being. The problem is that because it's in such an early stage of development, some people don't consider it human life due to thier own will. Regardless, the baby is alive and is human. One day I believe we will have the proper technology to understand this.  

 

Exactly, it's just your opinion. It is in no way shape or form just another surgical procedure. We are talking about ending a life. THe unborn baby is killed. periood. When an abortion is performed. I could have posted the video of a procedure but it is even more disturbing than the after effects. Your babbling on saying I'm trying to appeal to emotion, when I clearly stated I wasn't. I repeat this for the umptienth time, alot of people  wether it be prochoice or life don't have any idea of the procedure or what is done to the baby. Therefore I posted pictures of the removed "baby".

Point 1. And the people on one side of that split decision don't see the undeveloped fetus as being human. Thank you for reinforcing my point. And even if (which I highly doubt) planned parenthood was pro-eugenics at some point it does not mean that the only reason its currently supported is eugenics. If you wish to claim that then back it up with some source or statistics, otherwise I just call straight up BS.

Point 2. Technology and science cannot prove when a human life begins, its a philisophical question rather than a scientific one. It all depends on the question "What is a person?", science simply cannot answer that. The reason some people don't consider it human is not due to their own will, but due to their answer to that question. You are just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalalala I'm right and everybody else is wrong" rather than actually looking at what other people actually believe.

Point 3. It is just my opinion and in my opinion it is just another surgical proceduce and in my opinon its not a life. We already established our opinions on all those things.

Well I was sure by now that most people knew that planned parenthood was (and most likely still is) pro eugenics considereing the fact that it founder (Margaret Sanger) was one of the most outspoken eugenecists of her time. I'll give you several links if you would like.  http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/planp.htm">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/planp.htm  
http://www.nrlc.org/news/2004/NRL07/margaret_sanger_and_planned_pare.htm

 When I say the proper technology I mean that there will be further developments of understand if a child is able to think while in the womb at earlier stages, dream ect, and being able to reduce the 20 some odd weeks where it's aillegal to abort to earilier keep in mind I believe abortion at any stage is wrong.

It is life, it is a living bieng, that's not the argument, the argument is at what stage does it have rights if any. Whereas I believe it has rights at the moment of conception



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

WessleWoggle on 14 April 2009
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
WessleWoggle said:

 

 

 

Yes, I know how pregnancy is, I have 2 beautiful daughters (yah 23 is young but yah...) I was with my girlfriend through the whole thing and I saw how hard it is, yet at the same time ,although woman have to go throught that during a pregnancy, I don't believe that that should give the justification to end a human life. To be fully honest when it's your baby you see being born (as grosse as the procedures on t.v look) it'sa beautiful; thing that was worth the whole 9 months of pains,ect (from her perspective).

Human life is precious, it's just that we take it for granted. also how do we know that they baby doesn't have a concept of what life is? Brain waives start (and correct me if I'm wrong) around 6 weeks (though limited) into the pregnancy. Now I look at it from a spiritual aspect which alot of people don't, being a huge reason why I think that life is precious. I believe we all have souls.

 

 

 

 

It's true we don't know when or if a baby develops a concept of life, but you could argue it has a primal concept of life, on the level of any other non-human fetus.

But I think perception of life and death on the same conceptual level as a human, takes place outside the womb, in the human world, with a concious introspective level of thought. Death is only horrible if you think "I'm dying", do you think fetuses think that or just feel pain and panic?

Materialistically speaking there's no intristic value, nothing precious about life, we're just a reaction. Souls are unproven.

If you believe in souls, can't they find another body? What do you believe about souls?

 



hsrob on 14 April 2009
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Rath said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:

Not really. It all depends what country you live in. The U.S for example has some split decisions on abortion. It's not a major majority or one sided (a list of polls with interesting data) http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm.

Actually it has everything to do with population control and eugenics. Research trhe people who founded planned parenthood. If you really think abortion is legal because governments give a shit about a woman's right then your sadly mistaken.

 

It is a living human being. The problem is that because it's in such an early stage of development, some people don't consider it human life due to thier own will. Regardless, the baby is alive and is human. One day I believe we will have the proper technology to understand this.  

 

Exactly, it's just your opinion. It is in no way shape or form just another surgical procedure. We are talking about ending a life. THe unborn baby is killed. periood. When an abortion is performed. I could have posted the video of a procedure but it is even more disturbing than the after effects. Your babbling on saying I'm trying to appeal to emotion, when I clearly stated I wasn't. I repeat this for the umptienth time, alot of people  wether it be prochoice or life don't have any idea of the procedure or what is done to the baby. Therefore I posted pictures of the removed "baby".

Point 1. And the people on one side of that split decision don't see the undeveloped fetus as being human. Thank you for reinforcing my point. And even if (which I highly doubt) planned parenthood was pro-eugenics at some point it does not mean that the only reason its currently supported is eugenics. If you wish to claim that then back it up with some source or statistics, otherwise I just call straight up BS.

Point 2. Technology and science cannot prove when a human life begins, its a philisophical question rather than a scientific one. It all depends on the question "What is a person?", science simply cannot answer that. The reason some people don't consider it human is not due to their own will, but due to their answer to that question. You are just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalalala I'm right and everybody else is wrong" rather than actually looking at what other people actually believe.

Point 3. It is just my opinion and in my opinion it is just another surgical proceduce and in my opinon its not a life. We already established our opinions on all those things.

Well I was sure by now that most people knew that planned parenthood was (and most likely still is) pro eugenics considereing the fact that it founder (Margaret Sanger) was one of the most outspoken eugenecists of her time. I'll give you several links if you would like.  http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/planp.htm">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/planp.htm  
http://www.nrlc.org/news/2004/NRL07/margaret_sanger_and_planned_pare.htm

 When I say the proper technology I mean that there will be further developments of understand if a child is able to think while in the womb at earlier stages, dream ect, and being able to reduce the 20 some odd weeks where it's aillegal to abort to earilier keep in mind I believe abortion at any stage is wrong.

It is life, it is a living bieng, that's not the argument, the argument is at what stage does it have rights if any. Whereas I believe it has rights at the moment of conception

While i agree that's not the main argument, it is part of the argument and no it's not as cut and dried as you think.  The fact that a foetus is incapable of sustaining it's own life before twenty weeks puts it on very shaky ground, biologically speaking, as to whether it can be considered a living being. 

This has practical implications as the push to lower the cut-off at which abortions can be sought in some countries has been driven by the ability for medicine to routinely facilitate the survival of children born at less than 24 weeks.  The argument being that if children can routinely survive outside of the womb at younger than 24 weeks then seeking abortion at this late stage is tantamount to murder.

Also, there is little doubt that the foetus does have rights at some point.  The questions are; when do the rights start, what rights are they and are they less than/more than or equivalent to the rights of the mother and what factors can affect these rights.



WessleWoggle on 14 April 2009
Nirvana_Nut85 proclaimed:

 

 

 

It is life, it is a living bieng, that's not the argument, the argument is at what stage does it have rights if any. Whereas I believe it has rights at the moment of conception

Do you believe a cow or a dog has rights at the moment of conception?

At the moment of conception, there's little difference between a human, dog, or cow.

 



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Seece on 14 April 2009

not at all.

A plant is a living thing yet is it murder when you kill a plant? I know the comparison seems a bit stupid but ... just because a fetus is alive doesn't mean its the same as a baby/human/animal.

Its just a fetus .. doesn't have arms or legs or a brain. Its not murder.



 

hsrob on 14 April 2009
seece said:
not at all.

A plant is a living thing yet is it murder when you kill a plant? I know the comparison seems a bit stupid but ... just because a fetus is alive doesn't mean its the same as a baby/human/animal.

Its just a fetus .. doesn't have arms or legs or a brain. Its not murder.

I don't disagree with your point but a foetus has arms, legs and a brain, that's what makes it a foetus.  When it doesn't have all these parts, it's still considered an embryo, which is the first eight weeks post conception.



Seece on 14 April 2009
hsrob said:
seece said:
not at all.

A plant is a living thing yet is it murder when you kill a plant? I know the comparison seems a bit stupid but ... just because a fetus is alive doesn't mean its the same as a baby/human/animal.

Its just a fetus .. doesn't have arms or legs or a brain. Its not murder.

I don't disagree with your point but a foetus has arms, legs and a brain, that's what makes it a foetus.  When it doesn't have all these parts, it's still considered an embryo, which is the first eight weeks post conception.

My bad, I didn't think you could get rid of it when it got to that point .. when is the cut off date for abortions?



 

luinil on 14 April 2009
seece said:
hsrob said:
seece said:
not at all.

A plant is a living thing yet is it murder when you kill a plant? I know the comparison seems a bit stupid but ... just because a fetus is alive doesn't mean its the same as a baby/human/animal.

Its just a fetus .. doesn't have arms or legs or a brain. Its not murder.

I don't disagree with your point but a foetus has arms, legs and a brain, that's what makes it a foetus.  When it doesn't have all these parts, it's still considered an embryo, which is the first eight weeks post conception.

My bad, I didn't think you could get rid of it when it got to that point .. when is the cut off date for abortions?

I believe that varies from place to place. I don't know each state's laws so I can't tell you for sure though.



Luinil - Marisa (FE:SS). She's calm, collected, and really likes swords. (Courtesy of Words of Wisdom)
Tag: luinil - "Liberalism is a mental disorder." - Thanks fkusumot!
Nirvana_Nut85 on 14 April 2009
WessleWoggle said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
WessleWoggle said:
 

 

 

 

Yes, I know how pregnancy is, I have 2 beautiful daughters (yah 23 is young but yah...) I was with my girlfriend through the whole thing and I saw how hard it is, yet at the same time ,although woman have to go throught that during a pregnancy, I don't believe that that should give the justification to end a human life. To be fully honest when it's your baby you see being born (as grosse as the procedures on t.v look) it'sa beautiful; thing that was worth the whole 9 months of pains,ect (from her perspective).

Human life is precious, it's just that we take it for granted. also how do we know that they baby doesn't have a concept of what life is? Brain waives start (and correct me if I'm wrong) around 6 weeks (though limited) into the pregnancy. Now I look at it from a spiritual aspect which alot of people don't, being a huge reason why I think that life is precious. I believe we all have souls.

 

 

 

 

It's true we don't know when or if a baby develops a concept of life, but you could argue it has a primal concept of life, on the level of any other non-human fetus.

But I think perception of life and death on the same conceptual level as a human, takes place outside the womb, in the human world, with a concious introspective level of thought. Death is only horrible if you think "I'm dying", do you think fetuses think that or just feel pain and panic?

Materialistically speaking there's no intristic value, nothing precious about life, we're just a reaction. Souls are unproven.

If you believe in souls, can't they find another body? What do you believe about souls?

 

I'll answer the soul question first. I don't believe that you are necessarily a soul floating around looking for a body, but more along the lines of the judeo-christian ideology. Creation in conception. Obviously this opinion is more based on faith, because we cannot prove or disprove but only theorize.

I do believe there is some concept of the fetus knowing that they are dying which is why earliest recorded at 12 weeks the baby starts to panic and avoid being aborted. Wether that happens even earlier is unknown as I'm not sure if there is any ultrasound video,ect of this being done.

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"