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Forums - General - Is abortion a crime against humanity?

Onyxmeth on 13 April 2009
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Onyxmeth said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:

Well, I posted some pictures below, and I'm warning they are graphic. The reason for this is for some people here who are pro-choice and have not seen what an aborted baby looks like.

The pictures are disturbing, but so is the fact that you couldn't present a sound argument against abortion, and felt the need to resort to pictures. If you truly believe in something then at least do your best. This is laziness and borderline offensive. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice and I can't stand abortion. Sometimes though it's not always feasible for the world to revolve around our personal moral standards. We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make.

To further my point, I find suicide repugnant but it's your individual choice to do it. Now I can be shown a picture of a man with no face after shooting himself with a sawed off shotgun and be horrified by it, but that isn't going to change my opinion that he has the right to be that stupid.

@Bursche-No problem. I found the link very interesting myself.

 

I'll comment on the suicide analogy first. The difference is the baby does not have the "choice" wether he or she wants to be aborted. It is other people making that decision for them concerning thier life. While suicide....

Now one point of your statement I really liked is when you said "We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make." So why not bend our personal beliefs to give that unborn child's "rights" it deserve to life instead of taking it away because of the selfish ideology of others. No matter of how you look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.

It wasn't being lazy that made me post the pictures and while offensive they serve a purpose. Most people go into the argument of abortion without seeing the actual procedure (which I decided against posting a video) or what happens to the baby and develope thier opiniopns by what the media says or by the opinions of others. 

 

Have you ever stopped to think why the fetus doesn't have a choice? I mean even an infant has choices. Could it be that the fetus lacks the ability to have choice because it lacks the necessary brain functions? Hey look at people on life support. They don't have choices either. Guess who makes their choices for them. Other people.

Why would I need to bend my personal beliefs to give an unborn child it's rights? I've already made it abundantly clear I am 100% against abortion. I despise it. However a fetus 20 weeks of sooner(my personal cutoff) is a grey area as to whether it has human rights. If we give rights to the fetus, then where do we stop? Do we give rights to the sperm? How do we deal with condoms, birth control asnd the morning after pill?

Hypothetical scenario: A pregnant woman is going to die if she goes through with her pregnancy. There are two choices. Save the mother or save the baby. Who gets to choose? Now remember under your definition, both the mother and the fetus have human rights. Who gets to choose which person gets saved? Is it the mother? If so, then I implore why the mother cannot terminate a pregnancy that is not in the stages of premature birth?

Your laziness with the pictures came from how audacious your thinking is. You assume that a person that is pro-choice, like myself, or Mafoo, or many others, automatically approve of abortion. That we cherish it. That possibly we would hate abortion if somehow we could see photographic evidence of the horrors of it. Newsflash: I hate abortion. Mafoo hates abortion. Many others hate abortion. I look down on people that go through with it as a means to get out of responsibility. I do not need photos that I find sickening to let me know I hate abortion. I'm aware of it. That doesn't mean some irresponsible bitch doesn't deserve to have the right to fuck her life up by doing it.

 



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Rath on 13 April 2009
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Rath said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:

I'll comment on the suicide analogy first. The difference is the baby does not have the "choice" wether he or she wants to be aborted. It is other people making that decision for them concerning thier life. While suicide....

Now one point of your statement I really liked is when you said "We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make." So why not bend our personal beliefs to give that unborn child's "rights" it deserve to life instead of taking it away because of the selfish ideology of others. 

Because that would be making the world bend around your personal moral standards...

The difference is that while pro-choicers are not trying to force you to have an abortion pro-lifers are trying to force you not to. Therefore pro-choicers are not trying to make everybody follow their moral beliefs, just to have the right to follow their own.

See, I have no problem with people following thier own beliefs, and I don't believe in forcing others to share my views. When people come to understand that it's not about anyone's moral standards, or beliefs,ect but that it's about that unborn babies right to life, then it changes your perspective.

We do not have the right to take another human beings life, therefore we should not have the right to take an unborn life. The only reason it's heavily supported is because of this global idea of population control and that "human" are bad for the Earth and other B.S like that.

No the reason its supported is because a lot of people don't see an undeveloped fetus as being human. Its nothing to do with population control, thats just a handy side effect.

 

 

 No matter of how you look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.

Thats just a plain wrong statement because the way I look at it its not a living human being regardless of which stage of development it is in. Its also the way most pro-choicers look at it. What you should have said is 'The way I look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.'

Not too sound like an ass but it doesn't matter how you look at it. Regardless of what you think or feel, even when it is a "group" of cells it is still a living organism, I'm pretty sure that argument was settled earlier in this thread.

We are arguing whether its a human being, not whether its an organism. In my opinion (and in that of most pro-choicers) it can not be considered a human being at an early stage of development. To be human means so much more than to have a unique set of human DNA.

 

 

It wasn't being lazy that made me post the pictures and while offensive they serve a purpose. Most people go into the argument of abortion without seeing the actual procedure (which I decided against posting a video) or what happens to the baby and develope thier opiniopns by what the media says or by the opinions of others. 

Disturbing pictures do not an argument make. Open heart surgery is also a fairly messy business and there are some truly gruesome pictures of it, doesn't make it a bad thing though.

Really bad comparison. It's wasn't also to make an argument, as I've stated several times now, most people who are pro choice (who I have met) ,have no idea how an abortion is done or what exactly happens to the baby. So therefore by showiing how brutal and disgusting it is it might make them do some actual research and be able to make a more informaed decision (wether it be for or against)

Now I'd like to know how you can support something that you find so disturbing?.

As I said, I find pictures of any surgery disturbing yet I still support them. To me abortion is just another surgical procedure. Showing pictures of the removed fetus has very little to do with the procedure, its just an appeal to base emotions which is in essence a red herring.

 

 

 

 



Galaki on 13 April 2009
ssj12 said:
I look at it this way. A fetus is nothing more than a parasite until it stops feeding off its mother.

 

There are quite a lot of parasites feeding off society that aren't fetuses.



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mmnin on 13 April 2009

Depends on When its done, Why its done, and How its done.

 




Strategyking92 on 13 April 2009

I just think it's funny PETA supports a pro-choice stand point, but they absolutely hate it when you go fishing!
"PETA doesn't care about people" ~ south park



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Rath on 13 April 2009
Strategyking92 said:
I just think it's funny PETA supports a pro-choice stand point, but they absolutely hate it when you go fishing!
"PETA doesn't care about people" ~ south park

PETA are morons. Zero respect for their ways of getting their points of view across, quite similar to Nirvanas way in this topic actually.

Shock tactics and appeals to emotion are fallacious methods of debate in my opinion.

 



FaRmLaNd on 13 April 2009

Never trust someone that appeals primarily to peoples pathos.



SubiyaCryolite on 13 April 2009

I do. I mean, apart from women who have been raped, seeing abortion sickens me. It sucks that a human (they are HUMAN, how someone can call a feutus an "object" is beyond me) will die just because someone doesnt know how to control their sexual urges seems really f@#ked up. Its like that movie the Island, when those clones are being terminated, or in FMA with the Homonculi. Life isnt something to play around with.



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WessleWoggle on 13 April 2009
SubiyaCryolite said:
I do. I mean, apart from women who have been raped, seeing abortion sickens me. It sucks that a human (they are HUMAN, how someone can call a feutus an "object" is beyond me) will die just because someone doesnt know how to control their sexual urges seems really f@#ked up. Its like that movie the Island, when those clones are being terminated, or in FMA with the Homonculi. Life isnt something to play around with.

If we don't play with life how will we perfect it? No one says the playing has to be inhumane.

No one calls the fetus an object. It's a glob/clump/collection of cells that's forming into a human.

It's not really the same as a normal person dying when a fetus is forming, depending on their place in development.



highwaystar101 on 13 April 2009

No it is not in any way a crime against humanity. In fact it can help humanity. Let's face it, current abortion rules often state the abortion cannot happen after the second trimester, which is fair as at that point it could be classified as life, but before then the fetus is in no way self aware and isn't developed enough to count as life.

The reason I say that it can help humanity is that it is far more humane to terminate a pregnancy before the fetus is developed than to allow a child to be brought up in harsh conditions, poverty and with parents who likely don't want it. People often use th 'it could be a doctor' argument, but lets face it, if you can't afford to keep a baby you probably live in a low social/income area (sorry about the generalization) and the child has almost no chance of becoming a doctor in those circumstances. That's just one scenario though.