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Forums - General - Is abortion a crime against humanity?

Bursche said:
WessleWoggle said:
Abortion sucks but it actually helps humanity as a whole.

 

 So does Eugenics, the greater good and survival of man's greatest instead of inferiors. But that doesn't mean it is morally justified. There are a lot of things that helps humanity, and yet we don't do them because it isn't right.

 

The way I look at it, even if the child that wasn't aborted grows up to have a criminal life, at least it has the life and choices to live instead of not having that chance whatsoever.

Good for humanity, bad for the common good

 



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Onyxmeth said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:

Well, I posted some pictures below, and I'm warning they are graphic. The reason for this is for some people here who are pro-choice and have not seen what an aborted baby looks like.

The pictures are disturbing, but so is the fact that you couldn't present a sound argument against abortion, and felt the need to resort to pictures. If you truly believe in something then at least do your best. This is laziness and borderline offensive. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice and I can't stand abortion. Sometimes though it's not always feasible for the world to revolve around our personal moral standards. We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make.

To further my point, I find suicide repugnant but it's your individual choice to do it. Now I can be shown a picture of a man with no face after shooting himself with a sawed off shotgun and be horrified by it, but that isn't going to change my opinion that he has the right to be that stupid.

@Bursche-No problem. I found the link very interesting myself.

 

I'll comment on the suicide analogy first. The difference is the baby does not have the "choice" wether he or she wants to be aborted. It is other people making that decision for them concerning thier life. While suicide....

Now one point of your statement I really liked is when you said "We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make." So why not bend our personal beliefs to give that unborn child's "rights" it deserve to life instead of taking it away because of the selfish ideology of others. No matter of how you look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.

It wasn't being lazy that made me post the pictures and while offensive they serve a purpose. Most people go into the argument of abortion without seeing the actual procedure (which I decided against posting a video) or what happens to the baby and develope thier opiniopns by what the media says or by the opinions of others. 

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

Nirvana_Nut85 said:

I'll comment on the suicide analogy first. The difference is the baby does not have the "choice" wether he or she wants to be aborted. It is other people making that decision for them concerning thier life. While suicide....

Now one point of your statement I really liked is when you said "We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make." So why not bend our personal beliefs to give that unborn child's "rights" it deserve to life instead of taking it away because of the selfish ideology of others. 

Because that would be making the world bend around your personal moral standards...

The difference is that while pro-choicers are not trying to force you to have an abortion pro-lifers are trying to force you not to. Therefore pro-choicers are not trying to make everybody follow their moral beliefs, just to have the right to follow their own.

No matter of how you look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.

Thats just a plain wrong statement because the way I look at it its not a living human being regardless of which stage of development it is in. Its also the way most pro-choicers look at it. What you should have said is 'The way I look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.'

It wasn't being lazy that made me post the pictures and while offensive they serve a purpose. Most people go into the argument of abortion without seeing the actual procedure (which I decided against posting a video) or what happens to the baby and develope thier opiniopns by what the media says or by the opinions of others. 

Disturbing pictures do not an argument make. Open heart surgery is also a fairly messy business and there are some truly gruesome pictures of it, doesn't make it a bad thing though.

 

 



I reckon that nobody here argues, that a dead foetus isn't a pity and it would be far better, if the foetus would be born and grow up as a human being.

But I see so many problems with banning abortion

1. What are the reason for abortions? I reckon it's in many cases pure desperation due to most importantly rape, fear of the future, etc. or it's just because the mother faces severe problems to a birth which might cost here life.

2. Would a woman who feels desperated do it anyway or not? Abortion have been there before science made it save and a lot of women died and are still dying because of doing it with needles and other things.

3. So isn't denying them medical treadment, denying THEM one of their human rights?

4. Wouldn't it be better for churches to provide more services to show the women a way to keep the unborn, WITHOUT judging them as murders if they make an abortion and make them feel even more miserable as they were before?

5. What would be the penality for an abortion? And should somebody who saw no other choices be punished?

 

But these are just the problems with banning abortion, as I see no other way than to let or keep it legalized. I'm not a physician nor a human biologist, so I keep it to the experts to define the time of an abortion.

In Germany its illegal, but not punished, if it happens in the first 12 weeks and after you went to a pregnancy consultation. Exception apply, if the life of the mother is in danger or the child is severe disabled. Then abortion is de facto also allowed at a later stage.



fmc83 said:

I reckon that nobody here argues, that a dead foetus isn't a pity and it would be far better, if the foetus would be born and grow up as a human being.

But I see so many problems with banning abortion

1. What are the reason for abortions? I reckon it's in many cases pure desperation due to most importantly rape, fear of the future, etc. or it's just because the mother faces severe problems to a birth which might cost here life.

2. Would a woman who feels desperated do it anyway or not? Abortion have been there before science made it save and a lot of women died and are still dying because of doing it with needles and other things.

3. So isn't denying them medical treadment, denying THEM one of their human rights?

4. Wouldn't it be better for churches to provide more services to show the women a way to keep the unborn, WITHOUT judging them as murders if they make an abortion and make them feel even more miserable as they were before?

5. What would be the penality for an abortion? And should somebody who saw no other choices be punished?

 

But these are just the problems with banning abortion, as I see no other way than to let or keep it legalized. I'm not a physician nor a human biologist, so I keep it to the experts to define the time of an abortion.

In Germany its illegal, but not punished, if it happens in the first 12 weeks and after you went to a pregnancy consultation. Exception apply, if the life of the mother is in danger or the child is severe disabled. Then abortion is de facto also allowed at a later stage.

+1

 



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It's up to the individual.



God will take care of the babies so there's nothing to worry about.



Rath said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
 

I'll comment on the suicide analogy first. The difference is the baby does not have the "choice" wether he or she wants to be aborted. It is other people making that decision for them concerning thier life. While suicide....

Now one point of your statement I really liked is when you said "We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make." So why not bend our personal beliefs to give that unborn child's "rights" it deserve to life instead of taking it away because of the selfish ideology of others. 

Because that would be making the world bend around your personal moral standards...

The difference is that while pro-choicers are not trying to force you to have an abortion pro-lifers are trying to force you not to. Therefore pro-choicers are not trying to make everybody follow their moral beliefs, just to have the right to follow their own.

See, I have no problem with people following thier own beliefs, and I don't believe in forcing others to share my views. When people come to understand that it's not about anyone's moral standards, or beliefs,ect but that it's about that unborn babies right to life, then it changes your perspective.

We do not have the right to take another human beings life, therefore we should not have the right to take an unborn life. The only reason it's heavily supported is because of this global idea of population control and that "human" are bad for the Earth and other B.S like that.

 No matter of how you look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.

Thats just a plain wrong statement because the way I look at it its not a living human being regardless of which stage of development it is in. Its also the way most pro-choicers look at it. What you should have said is 'The way I look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.'

Not too sound like an ass but it doesn't matter how you look at it. Regardless of what you think or feel, even when it is a "group" of cells it is still a living organism, I'm pretty sure that argument was settled earlier in this thread.

It wasn't being lazy that made me post the pictures and while offensive they serve a purpose. Most people go into the argument of abortion without seeing the actual procedure (which I decided against posting a video) or what happens to the baby and develope thier opiniopns by what the media says or by the opinions of others. 

Disturbing pictures do not an argument make. Open heart surgery is also a fairly messy business and there are some truly gruesome pictures of it, doesn't make it a bad thing though.

Really bad comparison. It's wasn't also to make an argument, as I've stated several times now, most people who are pro choice (who I have met) ,have no idea how an abortion is done or what exactly happens to the baby. So therefore by showiing how brutal and disgusting it is it might make them do some actual research and be able to make a more informaed decision (wether it be for or against)

Now I'd like to know how you can support something that you find so disturbing?.

 

 

 

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

The less of us human animals in the world the better.



Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Onyxmeth said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:

Well, I posted some pictures below, and I'm warning they are graphic. The reason for this is for some people here who are pro-choice and have not seen what an aborted baby looks like.

The pictures are disturbing, but so is the fact that you couldn't present a sound argument against abortion, and felt the need to resort to pictures. If you truly believe in something then at least do your best. This is laziness and borderline offensive. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice and I can't stand abortion. Sometimes though it's not always feasible for the world to revolve around our personal moral standards. We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make.

To further my point, I find suicide repugnant but it's your individual choice to do it. Now I can be shown a picture of a man with no face after shooting himself with a sawed off shotgun and be horrified by it, but that isn't going to change my opinion that he has the right to be that stupid.

@Bursche-No problem. I found the link very interesting myself.

 

I'll comment on the suicide analogy first. The difference is the baby does not have the "choice" wether he or she wants to be aborted. It is other people making that decision for them concerning thier life. While suicide....

Now one point of your statement I really liked is when you said "We must bend to give others the rights they deserve, while still not agreeing with the choices they make." So why not bend our personal beliefs to give that unborn child's "rights" it deserve to life instead of taking it away because of the selfish ideology of others. No matter of how you look at it, it's a living human being regardless of which stage of development he or she is in.

It wasn't being lazy that made me post the pictures and while offensive they serve a purpose. Most people go into the argument of abortion without seeing the actual procedure (which I decided against posting a video) or what happens to the baby and develope thier opiniopns by what the media says or by the opinions of others. 

 

I think many people go into the pro-choice argument without ever having gone through the experience or even thinking about what it would be like to have to carry around an unwanted embyro/foetus/child for nine months and then giving up the child. People talk about infringing upon the rights of the unborn child but not about infringing upon the rights of the mother. The fact is it is impossible to fully reconcile the rights of both lives when they are contained within the one skin, and hence the controversy surrounding this whole issue.

While i agree with you about making an informed decision and having all options and details laid out before you i do not agree with showing people the procedure, unless they want to.  Expanding on the idea presented to Rath, you don't routinely show people medical procedures they are about to undergo.  People have an intrinsic aversion to blood and showing people the procedure (any procedure) they are about to undergo is about the fastest way to convince them they don't want to do it, but the problem is you are appealing to their base instinct and not to rational decision making. 

I am very much pro-choice but having said that i don't know that i would ever want to be involved in an abortion.  Saying you are pro choice isn't a defacto statement that you don't value the life or the rights of an unborn child, just that the mother is allowed to consider her own rights too.