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Forums - General - Rise of atheism: 100,000 Brits seek 'de-baptism'

SciFiBoy on 01 April 2009
mesoteto said:
im trying to understand how good things can be called gods will, but not bad things, surely if one is true, then so is the other?
No it is not true and does not have to be, god no longer smites us when we get bad, Gods will is for his Children to be happy but since we have will of our own we can choose not to follow his lead and that is when horrible things can happen to very good people and very bad people. Since you seem to want to keep Hitler going in this discussion I really wish you had read my previous posts
Gods will was for Hitler to have a good life and live happily, however Hitler mad choices that lead him down the path he went, not gods choices but Hitler’s, that is why he did what he did
God gave him options that would have been so much better for the world and for him, but he chose to go his own way and we saw how that turned out

"miracles" don’t happen, its called luck and/or coincidence.
Spoken like a true non believer, they do happen you just have to be willing to except that they can, I have heard stories of medical healing, I have heard stories of people being right where they needed to be at eth right moment, I have heard stories of freak accidents happening and nothing more then a bump on the head
You choice for it to not be , I chose for it to

1. if we have Free Will it means that nothing happens for a divine reason.

2. all of thoose can or will be explained through science. one of the great things about science, is that we look for the answers as to why unexplained things happen, we dont live in ignorance of the world.



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Final-Fan on 01 April 2009
appolose said:
Final-Fan said:
1.  So you're arguing that those judgments aren't necessary because you might not actually have to eat, sleep or breathe because only sensory evidence says we need to?  If not, what are you saying?  Why, exactly, are the sense judgments avoidable?  How do you propose avoiding them in everyday life? 

2.  NO YOU COULD NOT SAY THE SAME.  51/49 is not equivalent consistency with 99/1.  And the coin would randomly be wrong more often than right as often as it would be right more often than wrong, so IMO that comparison is totally bankrupt. 
1.  Our sensory data doesn't say anything; it's what we make of it.  And when you ask how we can avoid them in everyday life, you're already assuming there is such experiences such as "everyday life", a concept created by our judgements.

2. You could, if you got lucky (lucky enough to have a higher consistency rate, like 60%).  Also , the constitency rate for empiricism is much less than 99% (dreaming every night ruins that by itself).  In any event, one could make up a method of truth that had 100% consistency ("Everything that I believe  to be true right now is true).  But consistency is not an argument.

1.  /facepalm Of course.  But you still need to accept the sensory data to interpret it.  And what other way is there to interpret the sensory data we get in any way that makes any kind of sense?  The only alternatives I see are (A) assume that you are just a bodiless mind dreaming the entire personally perceived universe; or (B) imagine some fantasy world that you can't sense but that really exists instead of the personally perceived universe and act accordingly.  Neither of these have evidence of ANY KIND to suggest any possibility they might be true, whereas our senses give plentiful if (apparently) questionable evidence for the universe. 

What I meant by "everyday life" is simply that (A) you are alive; (B) time has passed in your life; (C) time will continue to pass in your life; and therefore (D) you may need to make judgments on what requirements exist on how to continue to live.  The only way I see to make such judgments reliably is by trusting our senses at least somewhat.  Do you agree with A, B, and C?  Do you concede that D follows from these?  What alternative do you propose to the following conclusion? 

2.  I will concede that it could be technically possible to go through life flipping a coin a million times a day and have it give you answers as consistent as sensory data -- if you will concede that the probability of this happening is incredibly, fantastically unlikely -- like, we might be talking googolplex to one odds here. 

I almost never remember my dreams, even moments after waking.  So I guess I have more consistency than you do.  And consistency is an argument, but only if you accept the sense data.  (See (1) for if you don't.)



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 01 April 2009
senseinobaka said:
SciFiBoy said:
im puzzeled, if christians claim that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, then surely that includes bad things people do as well?

either you believe there is a reason for everything or you believe there is no reason for anything, you cant sit on the fence here, either you think theres a reason or you dont, so which is it?

if everything happens for a reason, then hitler WAS by defenition doing gods will, im sorry but you cant say everything then say hitler isnt part of that, its bs

if like me you think things happen, but without divine reason, then why do you need religion?
Please dont generalize. Some Christian groups don’t subscribe to the notion of predestination or predetermination by God.

Personally, I reject the idea. If my faith in God was not from my own free-will but was instead predetermined long before my birth then my faith would be completely superfluous.

Also, as you mention, a person believing in predetermination by God would also be claiming that God caused all evil actions. But a Christian that believes in free-will would bevlieve that God cannot cause evil and would instead place blame for evil happenings on free-will

I believe that SciFiBoy was assuming that God must be totally omniscient.

 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

senseinobaka on 01 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
mesoteto said:
im trying to understand how good things can be called gods will, but not bad things, surely if one is true, then so is the other?
No it is not true and does not have to be, god no longer smites us when we get bad, Gods will is for his Children to be happy but since we have will of our own we can choose not to follow his lead and that is when horrible things can happen to very good people and very bad people. Since you seem to want to keep Hitler going in this discussion I really wish you had read my previous posts
Gods will was for Hitler to have a good life and live happily, however Hitler mad choices that lead him down the path he went, not gods choices but Hitler’s, that is why he did what he did
God gave him options that would have been so much better for the world and for him, but he chose to go his own way and we saw how that turned out

"miracles" don’t happen, its called luck and/or coincidence.
Spoken like a true non believer, they do happen you just have to be willing to except that they can, I have heard stories of medical healing, I have heard stories of people being right where they needed to be at eth right moment, I have heard stories of freak accidents happening and nothing more then a bump on the head
You choice for it to not be , I chose for it to

1. if we have Free Will it means that nothing happens for a divine reason.

2. all of thoose can or will be explained through science. one of the great things about science, is that we look for the answers as to why unexplained things happen, we dont live in ignorance of the world.

Responding to your Point 1.

Thats an absolute claim that cannot be made. Like I said before we all have free will and good and bad things happen due to free will. (ex. when my wife and I have a child, that would be a wonderful thing stemming directly from our free will). Your claim holds up for the vast majority of events, however, this doesnt mean there could not be divine intervention at all. It's perfectly possible for God to intervene, albiet a rarity.

 



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senseinobaka on 01 April 2009
Final-Fan said:
senseinobaka said:
SciFiBoy said:
im puzzeled, if christians claim that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, then surely that includes bad things people do as well?

either you believe there is a reason for everything or you believe there is no reason for anything, you cant sit on the fence here, either you think theres a reason or you dont, so which is it?

if everything happens for a reason, then hitler WAS by defenition doing gods will, im sorry but you cant say everything then say hitler isnt part of that, its bs

if like me you think things happen, but without divine reason, then why do you need religion?
Please dont generalize. Some Christian groups don’t subscribe to the notion of predestination or predetermination by God.

Personally, I reject the idea. If my faith in God was not from my own free-will but was instead predetermined long before my birth then my faith would be completely superfluous.

Also, as you mention, a person believing in predetermination by God would also be claiming that God caused all evil actions. But a Christian that believes in free-will would bevlieve that God cannot cause evil and would instead place blame for evil happenings on free-will

I believe that SciFiBoy was assuming that God must be totally omniscient.

 

Omniscience needs a working definition. There is a huge difference between knowing all and causing all. I beleive God has infinite wisdom and knowledge, but he does not know or determine what our decisions will be. He gave us the liberty of free-will.

 



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Check out the VGC Crunch this Podcast and Blog at www.tsnetcast.com

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mesoteto on 01 April 2009

1. if we have Free Will it means that nothing happens for a divine reason.

That is not true, just b/c I might choose to do something thinking its of my own free will does not mean it wasn't divine intervention, it simple means I went with along with the path laid out by God

There is only one perfect path in life that leads from point a to point b and each step is mapped by God and achieved by doing his will for us, however b/c I have my own free will I can choose to leave that path and wander along on my own and make my mistakes, however if I ever want to have eternal life with him I will someday have to get back on that path, be it on my death bed or be it 30 years from it, that's the great thing about a loving God he will always let you back in no matter what you have said or done as long as your willing to ask his forgiveness and really mean it, heck for all I know Hitler could be in heaven right now b/c at the last moment he saw the error of his ways and repented

2. all of those can or will be explained through science. one of the great things about science, is that we look for the answers as to why unexplained things happen, we don't live in ignorance of the world.

Why is believing that God built this huge system for the world to operate by, why is it man is so arrogant that just b/c we can understand how something works that it no longer comes from Gods will? I am a firm believer when he created this world he set in motion rules and reasons for why and how things work, he built this huge complex machine and made a special safe zone just for use, however we broke out of that zone and now we are exploring this wonderful machine, and yes sometimes we get our fingers pinched in a gear or a cog, but as long as we stay on the path he tries to set before us we should be safe, I have to say should b/c sometime other people get off their path and might cause us trouble in our

 



 

SciFiBoy on 01 April 2009
mesoteto said:

1. if we have Free Will it means that nothing happens for a divine reason.

That is not true, just b/c I might choose to do something thinking its of my own free will does not mean it wasn't divine intervention, it simple means I went with along with the path laid out by God

There is only one perfect path in life that leads from point a to point b and each step is mapped by God and achieved by doing his will for us, however b/c I have my own free will I can choose to leave that path and wander along on my own and make my mistakes, however if I ever want to have eternal life with him I will someday have to get back on that path, be it on my death bed or be it 30 years from it, that's the great thing about a loving God he will always let you back in no matter what you have said or done as long as your willing to ask his forgiveness and really mean it, heck for all I know Hitler could be in heaven right now b/c at the last moment he saw the error of his ways and repented

2. all of those can or will be explained through science. one of the great things about science, is that we look for the answers as to why unexplained things happen, we don't live in ignorance of the world.

Why is believing that God built this huge system for the world to operate by, why is it man is so arrogant that just b/c we can understand how something works that it no longer comes from Gods will? I am a firm believer when he created this world he set in motion rules and reasons for why and how things work, he built this huge complex machine and made a special safe zone just for use, however we broke out of that zone and now we are exploring this wonderful machine, and yes sometimes we get our fingers pinched in a gear or a cog, but as long as we stay on the path he tries to set before us we should be safe, I have to say should b/c sometime other people get off their path and might cause us trouble in our

 

by deviating from the path, i assume you mean right and wrong, so who defines the wrongs that lead you from that path and what are they?



Sqrl on 01 April 2009

So if you go into a store grab a pack of gum and put exact change on the counter does the cashier have any free will in whether or not he can ring you up? I would say yes he does. He could choose not to serve you, to quit his job and walk out, or any number of things other than ringing up the purchase and accepting payment.

Similarly I don't see a logical contradiction in saying people can have a free will and still be influenced by a divine will. If the influence is to make your choice an easy one then you still had a choice.

The argument that god is omniscient and would therefore know exactly how to influence to get the desired reaction is actually failing to realize the corollary to this point...namely that he would also know how much he can influence you without corrupting your free will. There is no reason to assume he will always (or ever) play hardball and maximize his influence to his best benefit.

As an omnipotent being there is no reason he should be unable to seperate information from distinct decision making processes.

Then there is a simple scenario:

Lets say you're about to walk into a women's restroom and the divine influence comes in the form of the sign on the door losing one of it's screws and sliding down suddenly and becoming uneven. As a result you notice the sign and realize you're heading into the wrong restroom.

Did god influence this person's free will or simply provide them with the information required to allow their free will to truly be had?
To Each Man, Responsibility
SciFiBoy on 01 April 2009
Sqrl said:
So if you go into a store grab a pack of gum and put exact change on the counter does the cashier have any free will in whether or not he can ring you up? I would say yes he does. He could choose not to serve you, to quit his job and walk out, or any number of things other than ringing up the purchase and accepting payment.

Similarly I don't see a logical contradiction in saying people can have a free will and still be influenced by a divine will. If the influence is to make your choice an easy one then you still had a choice.

The argument that god is omniscient and would therefore know exactly how to influence to get the desired reaction is actually failing to realize the corollary to this point...namely that he would also know how much he can influence you without corrupting your free will. There is no reason to assume he will always (or ever) play hardball and maximize his influence to his best benefit.

As an omnipotent being there is no reason he should be unable to seperate information from distinct decision making processes.

Then there is a simple scenario:

Lets say you're about to walk into a women's restroom and the divine influence comes in the form of the sign on the door losing one of it's screws and sliding down suddenly and becoming uneven. As a result you notice the sign and realize you're heading into the wrong restroom.

Did god influence this person's free will or simply provide them with the information required to allow their free will to truly be had?

its called a coincidence

 



Sqrl on 01 April 2009
SciFiBoy said:
Sqrl said:


Then there is a simple scenario:

Lets say you're about to walk into a women's restroom and the divine influence comes in the form of the sign on the door losing one of it's screws and sliding down suddenly and becoming uneven. As a result you notice the sign and realize you're heading into the wrong restroom.

Did god influence this person's free will or simply provide them with the information required to allow their free will to truly be had?

its called a coincidence

 

If it happens by chance yes, but we are debating whether god can have divine influence and still truly allow free will.  The scenario is presented as a thought experiment to that end. 

So do you have an opinion on the thought experiment?

 
To Each Man, Responsibility