no we don't choose the alpha male, he elects himself, and its every man for himself to be that one and those that are not him either bend to his will, get killed, or flee

What the...?

It doesn't work that way and it never worked that way...

Maybe we are thinking of different alpha males, I am thinking of the one that is the biggest and strongest in the pack, pod, herd, or tribe that establishes his dominant role….

Is there a different alpha male that I have never heard of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male

im puzzeled, if christians claim that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, then surely that includes bad things people do as well?

either you believe there is a reason for everything or you believe there is no reason for anything, you cant sit on the fence here, either you think theres a reason or you dont, so which is it?

if everything happens for a reason, then hitler WAS by defenition doing gods will, im sorry but you cant say everything then say hitler isnt part of that, its bs

if like me you think things happen, but without divine reason, then why do you need religion?

Well you are thinking of animals while I am talking of humans apparently

There has always been an alpha male in human groups, yes. But humans are nonetheless social life forms and the other males only wanted to gain that position if they felt strong enough. It's not like they were constantly fighting for that position. Also human social interaction is a bit more complicated than that. The Alpha male always needed the support of the group.

And again: Dogs are social animals as well but they also have an alpha animal. Would you say they are not social now?

I know what you're trying to imply which is that without religion we'd still fight for being the alpha guy but it isn't that easy. Humans only "work" as part of a group, otherwise they get depressed.

Louie said: Well you are thinking of animals while I am talking of humans apparently There has always been an alpha male in human groups, yes. But humans are nonetheless social life forms and the other males only wanted to gain that position if they felt strong enough. It's not like they were constantly fighting for that position. Also human social interaction is a bit more complicated than that. The Alpha male always needed the support of the group. And again: Dogs are social animals as well but they also have an alpha animal. Would you say they are not social now? I know what you're trying to imply which is that without religion we'd still fight for being the alpha guy but it isn't that easy. Humans only "work" as part of a group, otherwise they get depressed.

That is my point exactly, we only do it b/c we get something out of the situation and if that need is not meet we don’t do it

So humane nature is to only operate as long as we get something out of it

The “golden rule” operates under that but with a twist, it is not a guaranty that we will ever get something back out from applying it, you can only hope that if I scratch your back you will mine

Its just not humane nature to operate after anything but self needs

“im puzzeled, if christians claim that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, then surely that includes bad things people do as well?

either you believe there is a reason for everything or you believe there is no reason for anything, you cant sit on the fence here, either you think theres a reason or you dont, so which is it?

if everything happens for a reason, then Hitler WAS by definition doing gods will, im sorry but you cant say everything then say hitler isnt part of that, its bs

if like me you think things happen, but without divine reason, then why do you need religion?”’

I feel like I have been over this with you so far but again

Everything does happen for a reason, just not always a divine reason, but other times you will get the “miracles” you just have to look for them, but even then you can find a science as to how they happened jut not a why

And it was not gods will that Hitler hurt the world like he did, Gods will has always been for his children to be happy in service of him and reward them for that service, if you were to read my post you would see I have covered this point before, I feel like no your not trying to make a point but rather just put post out there that might cause drama

im trying to understand how good things can be called gods will, but not bad things, surely if one is true, then so is the other?

"miracles" dont happen, its called luck and/or coincidence.

@ Mesoteto: Well, yes. That's how evolution works: You try to survive. Otherwise we'd be dumb. And you know what? Religion works the same way.

You only learn / adopt religious values because they make you a respected member of the society and help you to survive. So it isn't remotely better than the golden rule.

Please dont generalize. Some Christian groups don’t subscribe to the notion of predestination or predetermination by God.

Personally, I reject the idea. If my faith in God was not from my own free-will but was instead predetermined long before my birth then my faith would be completely superfluous.

Also, as you mention, a person believing in predetermination by God would also be claiming that God caused all evil actions. But a Christian that believes in free-will would bevlieve that God cannot cause evil and would instead place blame for evil happenings on free-will.

im trying to understand how good things can be called gods will, but not bad things, surely if one is true, then so is the other?
No it is not true and does not have to be, god no longer smites us when we get bad, Gods will is for his Children to be happy but since we have will of our own we can choose not to follow his lead and that is when horrible things can happen to very good people and very bad people. Since you seem to want to keep Hitler going in this discussion I really wish you had read my previous posts
Gods will was for Hitler to have a good life and live happily, however Hitler mad choices that lead him down the path he went, not gods choices but Hitler’s, that is why he did what he did
God gave him options that would have been so much better for the world and for him, but he chose to go his own way and we saw how that turned out

"miracles" don’t happen, its called luck and/or coincidence.
Spoken like a true non believer, they do happen you just have to be willing to except that they can, I have heard stories of medical healing, I have heard stories of people being right where they needed to be at eth right moment, I have heard stories of freak accidents happening and nothing more then a bump on the head
You choice for it to not be , I chose for it to