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Forums - General - Rise of atheism: 100,000 Brits seek 'de-baptism'

WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:
Wraith priest you are legend in every way, I would love to say that to the random guy in Birmingham city center that keeps telling me I'm a sinner and will burn in hell...

Also, no-one answered this so I shall post again...

OK, for all you believers in god who are intent on asking atheists to back up why they don't believe in god let me ask you a question...


Prove to me, using sound evidence, that your god exists and is the correct one to follow!!!


Now... prove it to me, otherwise the atheists win the thread.

That arguement seems a bit specious.

To a lot of religious faiths the presense of god is in of itself a sense.

As such it would be like trying to explain vision to a blind person... even scientifically it'd be hard to get.

Some people have infact suggested that such a percetion, whether there is a god or not is tied to the temporal lobes.

Whether it is a sense of a higher consiousness, a sense of something else we currently can't understand or simply a hallucinary feeling is unknown.

 

No.

 

Just No.

 

The main difference being that humans have organs to see with, which even if faulty are DEMONSTRATABLY there.

There is no "God Sense" the closest thing theyve found is that certain harmonics such as those produced by church organs can produce "Holy Sensations"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3087674.stm

So that must mean God is a soundwave!

 

Now please come back with some actual evidence for got. Not Psuedo-Scientific rambling or a claim that "God could BE IN the soundwave".

I respect your post count, but not that post.

One

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Note that in cases of eplipsy it increased the "feeling of not being alone."  Due to increased activation in the temporal lobe.  Note brain damage also causes actual senses to go into "overdrive".

Two.  How do you demonstrate sound to someone who can't hear?

The closest you can do is either have a measure of sound waves via a "crowd meter" or some sort... that doesn't really demonstrate sound to the person just "something" since no matter how much someone "understands" sound a deaf person still isn't going to understand it because they aren't going to know what it "sounds" like.

 

So God could in fact be caused by incorrectly wired sysnapses or brain damage? Hardly good for his CV I'd imagine :D

 

Also I'd say the best way i could think of to demonstrate sound to someone would be to use a large speaker that could be turned up enough for the vibration to show. Then i'd explain to them via text and lip reading what sound is, what sounwaves actually are, how the vibration is picked up by the ear, sent to the brain and decoded in a normal humans mind.

 

Then I'd allow them to use feathers, paper, plastic sheets etc to measure soundwave density and the effects of sound on those things.

 

Basically i'd explain, then demonstrate and then allow them to test and verify the theories themselves. Something no one seems to be able to do with and Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God.

It could be.  Though it could be simply how a 6th sense works etc..  There are all sorts of theories though right now.

None of that actually explains sound though.  Not sound waves.

Much how someone can explain the 4th dimension... yet nobody could actually understand the 4th dimension because people don't have 4th dimension processing powers.

All you'd see no matter how hard you tried is an average 3D object even if it is a 4th dimensional object.

Amusingly the books like flatland explains the point pretty well... for those particular sects.

 

I think youll find it does, to a degree that both a deaf person could understand and witness and to a hearing person as well.

 

And I think you'll find we DO have a 4th dimensional sense or are you never aware of the passage of time? Our 4th dimensional sense is commonly called  "circadian rythm", which is entirely based upon the turning of the planet during its revolution around the sun. This can only take place due to the passage of time which is why our internal clocks can be so accurate.

1) Time is false.

Time is variable... the faster you move the more time slows down.  It isn't consistant... As Steven Hawking says Space Time as we see it isn't "True Time".  If such a thing as true time exists.  It's in his most famous book.  I'm blanking on the name.  It's a good read.

Furthermore.  All we can see in time is what is happening currently with memories of past time.  Just as in a 2 dimensional world all we would be able to see of a 3D object is what part is currently manifesting, and what parts manifested in the past.  So we don't have true 4th dimensional awareness if it was the 4th dimension.  To have this we would have to be able to see and expierence all time at once.

Like the aliens from Tralfamadore in Slaughterhouse 5.

2) The 4th dimension is totally something different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_dimension



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Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:
Wraith priest you are legend in every way, I would love to say that to the random guy in Birmingham city center that keeps telling me I'm a sinner and will burn in hell...

Also, no-one answered this so I shall post again...

OK, for all you believers in god who are intent on asking atheists to back up why they don't believe in god let me ask you a question...


Prove to me, using sound evidence, that your god exists and is the correct one to follow!!!


Now... prove it to me, otherwise the atheists win the thread.

That arguement seems a bit specious.

To a lot of religious faiths the presense of god is in of itself a sense.

As such it would be like trying to explain vision to a blind person... even scientifically it'd be hard to get.

Some people have infact suggested that such a percetion, whether there is a god or not is tied to the temporal lobes.

Whether it is a sense of a higher consiousness, a sense of something else we currently can't understand or simply a hallucinary feeling is unknown.

 

No.

 

Just No.

 

The main difference being that humans have organs to see with, which even if faulty are DEMONSTRATABLY there.

There is no "God Sense" the closest thing theyve found is that certain harmonics such as those produced by church organs can produce "Holy Sensations"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3087674.stm

So that must mean God is a soundwave!

 

Now please come back with some actual evidence for got. Not Psuedo-Scientific rambling or a claim that "God could BE IN the soundwave".

I respect your post count, but not that post.

One

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Note that in cases of eplipsy it increased the "feeling of not being alone."  Due to increased activation in the temporal lobe.  Note brain damage also causes actual senses to go into "overdrive".

Two.  How do you demonstrate sound to someone who can't hear?

The closest you can do is either have a measure of sound waves via a "crowd meter" or some sort... that doesn't really demonstrate sound to the person just "something" since no matter how much someone "understands" sound a deaf person still isn't going to understand it because they aren't going to know what it "sounds" like.

 

So God could in fact be caused by incorrectly wired sysnapses or brain damage? Hardly good for his CV I'd imagine :D

 

Also I'd say the best way i could think of to demonstrate sound to someone would be to use a large speaker that could be turned up enough for the vibration to show. Then i'd explain to them via text and lip reading what sound is, what sounwaves actually are, how the vibration is picked up by the ear, sent to the brain and decoded in a normal humans mind.

 

Then I'd allow them to use feathers, paper, plastic sheets etc to measure soundwave density and the effects of sound on those things.

 

Basically i'd explain, then demonstrate and then allow them to test and verify the theories themselves. Something no one seems to be able to do with and Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God.

It could be.  Though it could be simply how a 6th sense works etc..  There are all sorts of theories though right now.

None of that actually explains sound though.  Not sound waves.

Much how someone can explain the 4th dimension... yet nobody could actually understand the 4th dimension because people don't have 4th dimension processing powers.

All you'd see no matter how hard you tried is an average 3D object even if it is a 4th dimensional object.

Amusingly the books like flatland explains the point pretty well... for those particular sects.

 

I think youll find it does, to a degree that both a deaf person could understand and witness and to a hearing person as well.

 

And I think you'll find we DO have a 4th dimensional sense or are you never aware of the passage of time? Our 4th dimensional sense is commonly called  "circadian rythm", which is entirely based upon the turning of the planet during its revolution around the sun. This can only take place due to the passage of time which is why our internal clocks can be so accurate.

1) Time is false.

Time is variable... the faster you move the more time slows down.  It isn't consistant... As Steven Hawking says Space Time as we see it isn't "True Time".  If such a thing as true time exists.  It's in his most famous book.  I'm blanking on the name.  It's a good read.

Furthermore.  All we can see in time is what is happening currently with memories of past time.  Just as in a 2 dimensional world all we would be able to see of a 3D object is what part is currently manifesting, and what parts manifested in the past.  So we don't have true 4th dimensional awareness if it was the 4th dimension.  To have this we would have to be able to see and expierence all time at once.

Like the aliens from Tralfamadore in Slaughterhouse 5.

2) The 4th dimension is totally something different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_dimension

 

Time isn't variable. The faster you move the slower you experience time, true, but thats not due to time changing, it's all due to how you're observing it.

 

You're point about the 4th dimension i shall concede for now as it is A)Theoretical B) I need to wait until i have learned more.


EDIT - Just noticed it's 2.30AM so i'm off to bed. I look forward to continuing this tomorrow and i have to say im glad this debate managed not (Albeit barely sometimes!) to devolve into an unorchestrated flamefest! Night everyone! :D



"Everything I tell you is a lie. Every question I ask you is a trick. You will find no truth in me."

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WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
WraithPriest said:
Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:
Wraith priest you are legend in every way, I would love to say that to the random guy in Birmingham city center that keeps telling me I'm a sinner and will burn in hell...

Also, no-one answered this so I shall post again...

OK, for all you believers in god who are intent on asking atheists to back up why they don't believe in god let me ask you a question...


Prove to me, using sound evidence, that your god exists and is the correct one to follow!!!


Now... prove it to me, otherwise the atheists win the thread.

That arguement seems a bit specious.

To a lot of religious faiths the presense of god is in of itself a sense.

As such it would be like trying to explain vision to a blind person... even scientifically it'd be hard to get.

Some people have infact suggested that such a percetion, whether there is a god or not is tied to the temporal lobes.

Whether it is a sense of a higher consiousness, a sense of something else we currently can't understand or simply a hallucinary feeling is unknown.

 

No.

 

Just No.

 

The main difference being that humans have organs to see with, which even if faulty are DEMONSTRATABLY there.

There is no "God Sense" the closest thing theyve found is that certain harmonics such as those produced by church organs can produce "Holy Sensations"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3087674.stm

So that must mean God is a soundwave!

 

Now please come back with some actual evidence for got. Not Psuedo-Scientific rambling or a claim that "God could BE IN the soundwave".

I respect your post count, but not that post.

One

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Note that in cases of eplipsy it increased the "feeling of not being alone."  Due to increased activation in the temporal lobe.  Note brain damage also causes actual senses to go into "overdrive".

Two.  How do you demonstrate sound to someone who can't hear?

The closest you can do is either have a measure of sound waves via a "crowd meter" or some sort... that doesn't really demonstrate sound to the person just "something" since no matter how much someone "understands" sound a deaf person still isn't going to understand it because they aren't going to know what it "sounds" like.

 

So God could in fact be caused by incorrectly wired sysnapses or brain damage? Hardly good for his CV I'd imagine :D

 

Also I'd say the best way i could think of to demonstrate sound to someone would be to use a large speaker that could be turned up enough for the vibration to show. Then i'd explain to them via text and lip reading what sound is, what sounwaves actually are, how the vibration is picked up by the ear, sent to the brain and decoded in a normal humans mind.

 

Then I'd allow them to use feathers, paper, plastic sheets etc to measure soundwave density and the effects of sound on those things.

 

Basically i'd explain, then demonstrate and then allow them to test and verify the theories themselves. Something no one seems to be able to do with and Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God.

It could be.  Though it could be simply how a 6th sense works etc..  There are all sorts of theories though right now.

None of that actually explains sound though.  Not sound waves.

Much how someone can explain the 4th dimension... yet nobody could actually understand the 4th dimension because people don't have 4th dimension processing powers.

All you'd see no matter how hard you tried is an average 3D object even if it is a 4th dimensional object.

Amusingly the books like flatland explains the point pretty well... for those particular sects.

 

I think youll find it does, to a degree that both a deaf person could understand and witness and to a hearing person as well.

 

And I think you'll find we DO have a 4th dimensional sense or are you never aware of the passage of time? Our 4th dimensional sense is commonly called  "circadian rythm", which is entirely based upon the turning of the planet during its revolution around the sun. This can only take place due to the passage of time which is why our internal clocks can be so accurate.

1) Time is false.

Time is variable... the faster you move the more time slows down.  It isn't consistant... As Steven Hawking says Space Time as we see it isn't "True Time".  If such a thing as true time exists.  It's in his most famous book.  I'm blanking on the name.  It's a good read.

Furthermore.  All we can see in time is what is happening currently with memories of past time.  Just as in a 2 dimensional world all we would be able to see of a 3D object is what part is currently manifesting, and what parts manifested in the past.  So we don't have true 4th dimensional awareness if it was the 4th dimension.  To have this we would have to be able to see and expierence all time at once.

Like the aliens from Tralfamadore in Slaughterhouse 5.

2) The 4th dimension is totally something different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_dimension


Time isn't variable. The faster you move the slower you experience time, true, but thats not due to time changing, it's all due to how you're observing it.

 

You're point about the 4th dimension i shall concede for now as it is A)Theoretical B) I need to wait until i have learned more.


EDIT - Just noticed it's 2.30AM so i'm off to bed. I look forward to continuing this tomorrow and i have to say im glad this debate managed not (Albeit barely sometimes!) to devolve into an unorchestrated flamefest! Night everyone! :D

Steven Hawking disagrees with you.

The combined speed through space and time = the speed of light.

Additonally this means time doesn't age.

If you were to somehow get a peach to go the speed of light (impossible but bear with me.) it would never age until deaccelerated.



appolose said:
highwaystar101 said:

OK, for all you believers in god who are intent on asking atheists to back up why they don't believe in god let me ask you a question...


Prove to me, using sound evidence, that your god exists and is the correct one to follow!!!

 

 

While I could try to give an argument based on physics (notwithstanding, the objections of sqrl), I would like to ask you to prove to me your senses work.  If you can't, you're effectively the same as the evidence-lacking religious person.

 

 

It's been prooven many times how our sense work actually.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Wonderful. Atheism has finally become a religion.



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vlad321 said:
appolose said:
highwaystar101 said:

OK, for all you believers in god who are intent on asking atheists to back up why they don't believe in god let me ask you a question...


Prove to me, using sound evidence, that your god exists and is the correct one to follow!!!

 

 

While I could try to give an argument based on physics (notwithstanding, the objections of sqrl), I would like to ask you to prove to me your senses work.  If you can't, you're effectively the same as the evidence-lacking religious person.

 

 

It's been prooven many times how our sense work actually.

 

 How so?  Did we observe how they worked?  Because that would involve us using our senses, the things we're trying to prove.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

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ssj12 said:
I have zero issue with this whole renouncing their faith thing.

It is this little paragraph that annoys me:

the latest last week when Pope Benedict XVI stirred global controversy on a trip to AIDS-ravaged Africa by saying condom use could further the spread of the disease.


WTF was the Pope thinking? He seriously crossed so many lines with that massive line of BS. He just shows how useless he is. "Hand of God" my foot. More like fist of Satan.

Even though the pope stated this is because of religious reasons. Studies have shown (I don't have time to cite them you can find them on africa-wide Nipad or AllAfrica.com) condom use would have to be almost universal and 80% of sexual encounters to reduce HIV prevalence - rates like this aren't achieved in the western world. Most experts agree that the two best ways to reduce prevalence is by circumcising men (reduces chances by 60% as evidenced by monitoring sero-discordant partners) and reducing the number of concurrent sexual partnerships (as evidenced by studies on Uganda and their prevalence reduction in all segments).

Like I said, even though he is probably saying this for religious reasons, he's spot on with most experts. In fact focusing on condom social marketing (they sell the condoms primarily) takes away from making behavioral changes.

For more info lookup: Sexual Network and multiple concurrent partnerships - on information and solid theories on why HIV africa has gotten so bad (this is typically exacerbated by migrant labor and the nature of interdependence in African kin groups)

 

 



How does time being variable mean anything? Isn't space variable as well? (black holes mess with both of them) Are space and matter "false"?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Final-Fan said:
How does time being variable mean anything? Isn't space variable as well? (black holes mess with both of them) Are space and matter "false"?

Frame dragging isn't really "messing" with space and time. 

It doesn't make space variable at all.  It makes our percetion of space different.... however light still goes the same speed it always does.  It looks like light speeds down but it doesn't.  Space itself is still the same size.  It just doesn't look like it is.

X is always at X.  Y is always at Y.  Much like if you were to take a piece of graph paper and were to fold it.

Even gravity from planets seems to "Slow" light to us.  However it's still traveling the same amount of space.

While time actually does stop as stuff gets faster... it's not that it looks different... it actually is different.

Time is fake because it isn't a dimension.

You while driving a car and I while walking are... though while it is very minute traveling "through time" differently.

If you were to drive a car... and I were to walk for our entire lives... you would reach "5 years" before I would.

What we describe as time likely has not always existed... and instead was created with the big bang.

Of which case the question would be asked "Well how did stuff happen if there was no time?"

This brings in "Imaginary Time" and a kind of "Real Time" that isn't time as we perceive it.  This is stuff that can not be explained by stuff like "watching a peach"... but instead would be time that is not relative.

Which is unobservable by us basically.

 



What we describe as matter didn't exist either, or so I've been led to believe.

And doesn't one's mass increase as well as one approaches the speed of light? (5 seconds of Google ... YES.) So doesn't that mean that matter is affected by speed as well as time?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!