I don't think that these 3rd party games, like Madworld, have any business strategy, as Nintendo has.
They are just making hardcore games for the Wii, but it won't make them accessible for the New Market, only to the hardcore gamers who has a Wii. It will be very popular on forums like this one, but it won't be a system seller.

If you believe that upstreaming means simply starting "casual" and making "more hardcore" games, you are wrong. There is also a change between the Old Market and a New Market:

Nintendo's strategy is NOT about getting enough money from "casual" games, and later making a more advanced console, and more complex games for the "hardcore".
It is about upstreaming their current, "casual", New Market audience, and make more advanced games for THEM.

Malstrom here, Malstrom there... he has some interesting ideas but I think some of his terms are really over-used on this forum. It's not like Nintendo followed his "upstream path". Personally most gamers I know started with some sort of "core" game and still play those games while my girlfriend loves social games and still plays them since years.

No, people don't get "hardcore" over time at least not in my eyes. But hey whatever...

Actually I was just too lazy to think of another word that's why I put it in err... Gänsefüßchen

I'll give you an example:

For instance my girlfriend started playing on the SNES with Super Mario World. Since then she's owned a Gameboy, a Gamecube and a DS. Her favourite games are Super Mario (2D), Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, the Sims, Brain Training and Viva Pinata. Basically, her gaming tastes never changed but the market offers more of those games now, that's why she's become a much more dedicated gamer.

Another friend of mine (also a woman btw) never (!) played any videogames besides Super Mario World on SNES. When I got the Wii and later Resident Evil 4 with it she fell in love with the game and now she's crazy for Dead Rising, GTA, Battlefield, is dissapointed because Resident Evil 5 doesn't feel like a Resident Evil game (that's what she said! ... oh dang) and likes F-Zero GX on Gamecube. She only became interested in gaming because of the Wii, though. But basically the Wii only helped to make her aware of games, it never made her move upstream.

Both of them never changed their favourite type of game. I think it's more about how your brain works than "moving upstream".

I should be considered the most hardcore of hardcore to set upon hardcore mountain being I've being gaming since Atari 2600 upwards.

Yet I still bought all Peggles and Wiifit.


Honestly I know most of you are angry Nintendo won the console war because lets face they were given no chance from third partys or gaming media but hey at least were all still getting games.

That's exactly what never happened to my girlfriend yet. For her a game has to involve social aspects to be worth playing. But she won't play more "traditional" games. I don't think moving upstream (Malstroms definition of it) means spending more time, it means spending more money and time on more traditional games.

Edit: I'll put it that way. If you could rate games of a genre from 1-10 when it comes to how "hardcore" (you know what I mean) the game is my girlfriend always looks for games betwen 3-5 or so. And she never looks for a game that would score a 7 or higher. So basically she never moved upstream within that genre. She just became a more dedicated player because there are more interesting games that would get a 3-5 than some years ago.

Well yeah, that's probably the best

Make sure to read my edit though, it explains better what I mean.

Hehe, this debate is starting to sound like a religious one with all the arguing over the meaning of words used by a particular person...

But I'll join it nonetheless. I think upstreaming means simply this: having higher demands on the product. The users of Wii Sports, or to take things away from gaming, an early Blackberry, did not have alot of demands on the product apart from needing to deliver on the values you're looking for: pick up and play gameplay, intuitive controls, social fun for Wii Sports, and e-mailing from anywhere with a good interface for the blackberry. The blackberry went upmarket as it added more features(without ever taking away from the most important one) and generally improved the product. It's users went upstream as this happened, and now would not buy the basic blackberry of yesteryear. Mario Kart Wii is upmarket from Wii Sports, and provides all the same values, but has more content and is a deeper experience. They will eventually want games that are deeper and more content full than Mario Kart, but they will have to generally retain the values that Mario Kart Wii and Wii Sports bring to the table.

Well, that should happen eventually but there is a certain point where you can't move upstream anymore. Basically I think Malstrom meant moving upstreams = getting more "hardcore" as he listed different genres. And I doubt that will happen. My girlfriend will never be interested in more competitive games for example so moving upstream won't cause people to buy "hardcore games". But if I remember correctly that's exactly what malstrom said: "You'll see a flood of hardcore games on the Wii!" We will, yes. But not because of "social gamers" - we'll see it because the Wii has a reasonable number of "core" gamers on board.

I think Madworld will be a great game for Wii owners and I plan on buying it myself.

However, shame on you people hyping it this way. It won't convert PS360 gamers. Just shutup. It's one game and it's not like No More Heroes was incredibly popular or high selling. Madworld has the potential to sell well, be a great game, and make a nifty profit on the way as well. But all of you hyping it past that are simply setting the game up for disappointment. So, again. Shame on you.

Uhh.. no :-p Those people would still like the same genres so they still won't buy today's "hardcore" games. And that's what Malstrom implied. I don't think his solution is wrong (= the Wii will get more hardcore games) but I think his explanation is wrong (I think today's "casuals" won't get interested in today's "core" games but the mass market appeal of the Wii will automatically get people interested who are naturally the "hardcore" type of gamer - the competitive gamer. That's my second example )