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Forums - General - Do you think Darwin is right

Final-Fan on 15 February 2009
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
I think that one of slimebeast's problems is that physics in the area being discussed sounds so weird to most laymen. I mean, a lot of that stuff TOTALLY flies in the face of 'common sense'.

Seriously, I can't know the precise momentum of something I know the exact location of? WTF is that? So slimebeast finds these explanations repellent because they are strange to him. I can see this in his arguments that basically boil down to "it sounds crazy so it can't be true".

I'm afraid, slimebeast, that they can.
lol, don't assume so much.

The problem isn't understanding.

The problem is that a multiverse theory is less reasonable to believe in than in a God.

People want to believe in it (and similar theories, despite not having a scientific basis - but hey, at least it's not a God), but they actually dont. I don't think anyone actually believes that there exists an insane amount of parallel universes with near carbon copies of each person on earth running around and living the same life.

I may be wrong, after all I'm speculating as to your mental processes, but you've apparently misinterpreted what I said. 

I never said you don't understand the proposals.  I said you find them very strange and reject them based on how bizarre they seem.  "And multiverse is a ridiculous explanation, it's just laughable that there would be 1000's of Slimebeasts out there living a near perfect copy of my life."

The multiverse theory/hypothesis (I'm not fully up to date on this stuff) is not strongly proven, but it does have support in that it's consistent AFAIK with the observed universe and the relevant mathematics.  So it does not take "faith" to believe it might be true. 

Just because people believe something strange, you seem to presume that it's just as scientifically unfounded as God.  That is not always the case, and it is not the case here.  Get over yourself. 

P.S.  There are other equally strange things in physics that we can prove beyond a reasonable doubt and in fact can demonstrate in high school science class, such as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle as noted above. 



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FaRmLaNd on 15 February 2009

Any thread about evolution inevitably becomes about the answer to life the universe and everything.

Which is a stupid discussion because the answer (42) has been known for several decades now.



Final-Fan on 15 February 2009
jv103 said:
Quick question - What the fuck does the origin of the universe have to do with evolution?

I'm pretty certain that observable evolution, has nothing to do with the origin of the universe. I'm just wondering how some people are saying evolution is invalid because it doesn't explain the origin of the universe.

If I show someone that kinetic energy is demonstrable by rolling it down hill, does it matter where the bowling ball came from -i.e. if it was made in china or the U.S. (besides price)

I just don't see how the topic shifted.

Yeah, normally I'd be annoyed, but the new topic is interesting enough that I don't really mind this time. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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jv103 on 15 February 2009

The Large Hadron Collider will hopefully bring about new evidence (I'm not a cosmologist or astrophysicist, so I only know what I read in pop sci lit) about dark matter and all these other particles (don't remember the names) that supposedly make up the universe. It will be interesting to see because some physicists are worried that the LHC may not show any evidence supporting 'string theory' (which is currently the status quo in physics). I read a book about string theory. I still don't understand it.



tombi123 on 15 February 2009
jv103 said:
The Large Hadron Collider will hopefully bring about new evidence (I'm not a cosmologist or astrophysicist, so I only know what I read in pop sci lit) about dark matter and all these other particles (don't remember the names) that supposedly make up the universe. It will be interesting to see because some physicists are worried that the LHC may not show any evidence supporting 'string theory' (which is currently the status quo in physics). I read a book about string theory. I still don't understand it.

You're not the only one.

 



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akuma587 on 15 February 2009

It got this far off topic because the anti-evolution people were using misdirection to try and prove a point. Mrstickball started it trying to discredit science on other grounds outside of evolution. I think he took his ball and went home a few pages ago.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Avalach21 on 15 February 2009
Soleron said:
Avalach21 said:
...

 

God isn't "Stuff."  God isn't in "time" or "space."  God doesn't exist in our "universe."  So therefore a hypothetical "God" doesn't fall under the laws that govern our universe.  So if there were to be a "God" it would be impossible for us to understand him, or his existance, and questions such as "how did he come to exist?" make no sense, becasue he doesn't "exist" in our sense of the word.  This is why it is hard (impossible) for science to prove or disprove God, because you can't test something that does not follow the rules of science.

1. Our universe is deterministic (all things have a cause). If God is outside these rules, he cannot affect the universe at all. He can't talk to people or perform miracles. I assume you believe in a personal (interventionist) God? You can't have both.

2. Even if there is such a supernatural cause to the universe, your description doesn't imply any of the qualities usually assigned to "God" - a cause outside time need not be sentient, or benevolent, or intefering, or omniscient/potent/present.Suppose a lump of extradimensional cheese caused the universe. If I call that cheese "God", it fits your description but is not appropriate to worship.

Conclusion: Whether or not something supernatural created the universe has no bearing on traditions of religion or religious belief.

 

 

1. I never claimed to believe in any God, I'm just presenting a "hypothetical" God.  All things in our universe, after it's existence, have a cause, but the universe itself also needs a cause. In my opinion, it's logical to think that something that caused our universe to exist is something outside of the universe (the mentioned supernatural cause).

Also, a religious person could easily believe that while the essence of God is extradimensional, he could manifest himself into the physical world in any manner he chooses (ie. Jesus, God in flesh.)

2. You can call God whatever you want, cheese, a lump of spaghetti, who the hell cares.  He is not physical, none of these things describe him, so you can apply whatever physical image to him you want.  I don't understand how my description of God prevents God from having any of the traits you listed either?

 

I guess a comparison could help here.

Let's say you and I build a computer together.  We exist outside of the computer, we assemble the parts and make a working computer (we even install Linux on it.)  We are outside of the processes of the computer, we are not data on the hard disk, we do not exist any where on the RAM or anything, we are outside of the computer.  Even though we exist outside of the "dimensions" of the computer, we still make a way for ourselves to be able to interface with the computer.  The computer will run under it's programmed rules until we feel a need to manipulate them.  I'm sure if God made the universe, if he was "all knowledgeable" he would make it in such a way that he could interface with it when he wanted to. 

This is all assuming that an "interventionist" God existed.

Someone earlier in the thread (maybe even Akuma?) mentioned a God who set off the big bang, and set everything to in place to occur, so we'd evolve from microorganisms to human beings, and he need not intervene anywhere afterward.  This would be a God who is not an "interventionist."

So the "interventionist" quality is neither necessary nor impossible with my previous description of God.



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akuma587 on 15 February 2009

That's where people start getting into real trouble, when they start trying to claim with scientific evidence that God actually intervenes into our universe.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

outlawauron on 16 February 2009

So what do you guys think of Louisiana passing a law that allows Intelligent Design to be taught, in addition to Darwinism, as a possible theory of creation.



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Final-Fan on 16 February 2009

It's going to get slapped down because ID is not science. And if it doesn't, then it's going to fail because ID can't get a curriculum together because it's not science, or it's going to get slapped down when people put together a curriculum that has a religious bent.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!