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Forums - General - VGC Poll: Abortion

akuma587 on 22 January 2009
elprincipe said:
akuma587 said:
Your original post didn't make any sense...your asking us to just agree with your ramblings when there is no good reason to do so.

If it didn't make sense after the explanation for those with your viewpoint, I'm not sure you are capable of comprehending.  Maybe if I render it in an even simpler way:

 

1. abortion = murder

2. you are asking those who are against abortion to allow other people to abort.

3. following from 1. and 2. above, you are asking anyone who is pro-life to let someone murder someone else because they shouldn't interfere in their "private" affairs (private as in one person taking the life of another)

4. does not compute.

 

You can make the same argument about a lot of things.  What if I am a pacifist and don't want to pay the government taxes to wage war?  Can I just refuse to do so?  No, I can't, because the government gives a shit about everybody, not just what I want.

What if I am upset that black people are coming into my restaurant and I don't want them to be there?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think alcohol is completlely immoral and should be outlawed?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think abortion is murder?  You get my drift.  The government recognizes a greater interest that needs to be protected because there is a reasonable basis for allowing abortion to protect people's rights.

Because you don't understand that is like saying you don't understand why the government doesn't allow people to discriminate against people.  I am not implying that those two things are necessarily of equal weight, but just because you think something is immoral doesn't mean the government or society has to agree with you.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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WraithPriest on 23 January 2009

I'm massively Pro-Choice. I see absolutely no need for people who cannot support children to have them, especially when there are already so many children in the world who could be adopted.



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Nirvana_Nut85 on 23 January 2009

Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."



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Final-Fan on 23 January 2009
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."

(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion



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akuma587 on 23 January 2009
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."

(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion

Well said.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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jv103 on 23 January 2009

Besides, If human life had some inherent value. Wouldn't there be more 'rights' to like food, shelter etc. I'm just going off the whole right to life because it has value idea. It should really be 'the right to be born and then get fucked by the system.'

Just by supposing the idea that human life is special, something to be nurtured and taken care of, would then entail taking care of that life throughout it's entirety. Wouldn't it?

I mean why let anyone die of starvation, or exposure? Because they didn't want to work or couldn't work? Either way, if human life has that same value then there would be the inherent responsibility, even if that person didn't play by the majority's rules, to ensure that individuals well-being.

this is bullshit, or I imagine that society would have decided as whole if their was a universal value on human life.

There's not. Or at least 'modern' man hasn't recognized it.



akuma587 on 23 January 2009
jv103 said:
Besides, If human life had some inherent value. Wouldn't there be more 'rights' to like food, shelter etc. I'm just going off the whole right to life because it has value idea. It should really be 'the right to be born and then get fucked by the system.'

Just by supposing the idea that human life is special, something to be nurtured and taken care of, would then entail taking care of that life throughout it's entirety. Wouldn't it?

I mean why let anyone die of starvation, or exposure? Because they didn't want to work or couldn't work? Either way, if human life has that same value then there would be the inherent responsibility, even if that person didn't play by the majority's rules, to ensure that individuals well-being.

this is bullshit, or I imagine that society would have decided as whole if their was a universal value on human life.

There's not. Or at least 'modern' man hasn't recognized it.

The majority of pro-life people care about you until your born.

Once you're born, they tell you to fuck off, take care of yourself, and quit taking handouts from the government.  And screw giving mothers living in poverty welfare.  And if you were born poor and become a criminal, well then you're REALLY fucked.  They will probably give you the death penalty.  Don't do drugs or have premarital sex either.

This is one of the reason why most people who are pro-life are flagrant hypocrites, although I do think more pro-life people are becoming aware of all these contradictions and are trying to have a broader social agenda.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

elprincipe on 23 January 2009
akuma587 said:
elprincipe said:
akuma587 said:
Your original post didn't make any sense...your asking us to just agree with your ramblings when there is no good reason to do so.

If it didn't make sense after the explanation for those with your viewpoint, I'm not sure you are capable of comprehending.  Maybe if I render it in an even simpler way:

 

1. abortion = murder

2. you are asking those who are against abortion to allow other people to abort.

3. following from 1. and 2. above, you are asking anyone who is pro-life to let someone murder someone else because they shouldn't interfere in their "private" affairs (private as in one person taking the life of another)

4. does not compute.

 

You can make the same argument about a lot of things.  What if I am a pacifist and don't want to pay the government taxes to wage war?  Can I just refuse to do so?  No, I can't, because the government gives a shit about everybody, not just what I want.

What if I am upset that black people are coming into my restaurant and I don't want them to be there?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think alcohol is completlely immoral and should be outlawed?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think abortion is murder?  You get my drift.  The government recognizes a greater interest that needs to be protected because there is a reasonable basis for allowing abortion to protect people's rights.

Because you don't understand that is like saying you don't understand why the government doesn't allow people to discriminate against people.  I am not implying that those two things are necessarily of equal weight, but just because you think something is immoral doesn't mean the government or society has to agree with you.

 

None of the things you describe involves a human life, except for repeating what I said.  You fail.  The government's number one job is to ensure our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Life is listed first for a very good reason, because the others can't follow unless you have life.  Your analogy is very poor.

 



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jv103 on 23 January 2009

our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.



akuma587 on 23 January 2009
elprincipe said:
akuma587 said:

You can make the same argument about a lot of things.  What if I am a pacifist and don't want to pay the government taxes to wage war?  Can I just refuse to do so?  No, I can't, because the government gives a shit about everybody, not just what I want.

What if I am upset that black people are coming into my restaurant and I don't want them to be there?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think alcohol is completlely immoral and should be outlawed?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think abortion is murder?  You get my drift.  The government recognizes a greater interest that needs to be protected because there is a reasonable basis for allowing abortion to protect people's rights.

Because you don't understand that is like saying you don't understand why the government doesn't allow people to discriminate against people.  I am not implying that those two things are necessarily of equal weight, but just because you think something is immoral doesn't mean the government or society has to agree with you.

 

None of the things you describe involves a human life, except for repeating what I said.  You fail.  The government's number one job is to ensure our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Life is listed first for a very good reason, because the others can't follow unless you have life.  Your analogy is very poor.

 

Since when did war not involve human life?

I'm not getting drug into another argument as I have had plenty in this thread, but suffice it to say you haven't convinced anyone except yourself.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson