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Forums - Sony - New TV to use the CELL ~

DarkNight_DS said:
HappySqurriel said:
DarkNight_DS said:
HappySqurriel said:

Back in the day, I remember reading an interview with someone from IBM who (basically) stated that they were not focused on giving the Cell processor the best performance for games because Sony wanted the Cell processor to be used in everything from MP3 players to their top of the line TVs ... To a certain extent, this was part of the reason there was the early (moronic) talk from Sony about being able to take advantage of multiple Cell processors from various devices to boost ingame performance.

For me, the only surprise of this is that it has taken so long to see more devices taking advantage of the Cell processor.

 

A general purpose embbeded X86 processor makes way more sense in a TV or set top box. Having something that's so hard to program makes no sense at all. Toshiba and Sony never thought it all through properly. They believed so much that the PS3 would rule them all that they had no back up plan.

Yes and no ...

The X86 has always been a very shitty architecture and its primary advantage was that it was inexpensive when initially released, and had the most software made for it because it was the most popular architecture on the market. The areas where the x86 is currently disadvantaged is that it is expensive for the performance you get, and is not very energy efficient ... Which are the reasons why the x86 has never broken out of the PC market, and why most devices (PDAs, Cellphones, MP3 players, calculators, etc) use drastically different architectures.

Now, it probably would have made sense for them to target a much simpler architecture though ...

You can get a dual core CPU from intel or AMD which would be more then capable of handling the streams as long as you included a DSP (which is what this new cell cpu has).  A DSP added to an X86 chip will use less power, cost less to make and allow easier options to software programmers then the Cell.  The Cell is still VERY power hungry. 

Nobody programs Cell instructions except for Sony programmers and it's third parties.  Those guys don't write code for TV appliances.  Nor are there enough of those guys who could.  It's just a viscious cycle. 

Also feel free to call the X86 a shitty architecture all you want.  It's beaten all of the supposed good ones in price, performance and power usage etc as well as adoption over the years.  x86 morphs into whatever it needs to be.

 

 

I don't fully disagree, but I suspect that (soon enough) we will see a low cost energy efficient ARM processor (or something similar) which has all of the performance manufactures need.



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Now this is something the Cell seems suited for...



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If I may ask, what makes the cell chip any better for this kind of stuff than your average chip? I actually don't know... But kudo's to Toshiba for utilizing assets :D



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DarkNight_DS said:

No hostility, just simple logic dictates that this is a rather silly move (pointless).  It adds too much to the cost of the TV.  It'll be a niche product with no software support once the systems get pulled from shelves.

The only reason Toshiba is doing this is due to that Fab they bought off Sony that's mostly sitting idle due to the lack of Cell orders.  It's probably at 10-15% efficient at the moment. 

You do really have no clue about hardware, don't you? In your small world, you see Toshiba execs looking at each other and wondering "Gee, we bought this $1 billion fab from Sony, now what could we do with it?" Getting a TV signal onto your screen with best results takes a lot of digital signal processing and decoding (forget that X86 processor you wanted to use for that in another of your even sillier posts). Now you can do the signal processing with an expensive DSP and the the decoding with a cheap decoder/array of decoders and all the other nifty stuff required to get a brilliant display with other hardware chips - or you can use a modified cell chip for all of it/ most of it. Much cheaper also, with a fab that runs at much higher yields than your silly quote of 10-15% efficiency implies. If you google long enough, you will find reports of Toshiba / cell driven TV plans years old.



ChronotriggerJM said:
If I may ask, what makes the cell chip any better for this kind of stuff than your average chip? I actually don't know... But kudo's to Toshiba for utilizing assets :D

"can record up to six high-definition channels at once and improve the look of any video."

Basically they can use one SPE to decode each channel, since channels are independent of each other (little to no synchronization is needed between the SPEs). Also, the SPE's instruction set is good for decoding video streams as it has SIMD instructions which are usually easily applied to multimedia applications.

 



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NJ5 said:
ChronotriggerJM said:
If I may ask, what makes the cell chip any better for this kind of stuff than your average chip? I actually don't know... But kudo's to Toshiba for utilizing assets :D

"can record up to six high-definition channels at once and improve the look of any video."

Basically they can use one SPE to decode each channel, since channels are independent of each other (little to no synchronization is needed between the SPEs). Also, the SPE's instruction set is good for decoding video streams as it has SIMD instructions which are usually easily applied to multimedia applications.

 

That makes sense :P I didn't think it would be something so basic. Awesome to know though!

 



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drkohler said:
DarkNight_DS said:

No hostility, just simple logic dictates that this is a rather silly move (pointless).  It adds too much to the cost of the TV.  It'll be a niche product with no software support once the systems get pulled from shelves.

The only reason Toshiba is doing this is due to that Fab they bought off Sony that's mostly sitting idle due to the lack of Cell orders.  It's probably at 10-15% efficient at the moment. 

You do really have no clue about hardware, don't you? In your small world, you see Toshiba execs looking at each other and wondering "Gee, we bought this $1 billion fab from Sony, now what could we do with it?" Getting a TV signal onto your screen with best results takes a lot of digital signal processing and decoding (forget that X86 processor you wanted to use for that in another of your even sillier posts). Now you can do the signal processing with an expensive DSP and the the decoding with a cheap decoder/array of decoders and all the other nifty stuff required to get a brilliant display with other hardware chips - or you can use a modified cell chip for all of it/ most of it. Much cheaper also, with a fab that runs at much higher yields than your silly quote of 10-15% efficiency implies. If you google long enough, you will find reports of Toshiba / cell driven TV plans years old.

Dude... let's just say I do know what I am talking about. ;)  And yes that is exactly what the Toshiba execs did.  It was a panic reactionary.  Yes they had the idea to use it this way before however now they are doing it out of exasperation and not due to some greater plan.

A video signal DSP can be bought for pennies on the dollar these days.  HD ones might cost a buck or 2.  No one will ever record 6 shows on one TV at the same time, never mind watching more then 2 on one tv at a time.  Most people have a set top box that already does many PVR functions.

On this topic I know quite a bit.



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NJ5 said:

Basically they can use one SPE to decode each channel, since channels are independent of each other (little to no synchronization is needed between the SPEs). Also, the SPE's instruction set is good for decoding video streams as it has SIMD instructions which are usually easily applied to multimedia applications.

Again.. the "cell" chip used has almost nothing to do with the cell chip used in the PS3. And the four SPE's are used for picture scaling, not for decoding video streams. See here for a short description: http://www.beyond3d.com/content/news/486