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Forums - Sales - Are used games killing the market?

Bodhesatva said:

Just out of curiosity, why can the Jewelry, Movie, Gun, Book, Car, Music, and Appliance industries all thrive with bustling second hand markets, but games cannot? Given that practically every other comparable industry has a used saler market they live in harmony with, it seems like the problem is the Games industry, not second hand sales.

Here, let me lay this out with a math-ish analogy. If you see Industry [A] is losing money, and you pinpoint Issue [X], Issue [Y], and Issue [Z], you might claim that Issue [Y] is causing the losses. Without any further information, making conclusive statements isn't possible.

However, if you see Industry , Industry [C], Industry [D], Industry [E], Industry [F], Industry [G], and Industry [H] are doing fine, even though all of these industries also have Issue [Y], then it's fairly clear that Issue [Y] is not a dominating factor.

And again, that's essentially the place the gaming industry is in. Every other industry can not only survive but often thrive with a second hand market. So why can't video games? Either video games are super special and it's not fair to compare them to any other industry in the world, or there are other predominating factors which are much more significant and are the real cause for publisher's struggles. I'd propose again that the latter is more likely.

 

You are talking physical goods vs. Intellectual Property.  A washer and dryer continues to provide value until it dies.  Most video games are playable only so many times before it is time to move on...

As far as books are concerned, I would most certainly say that used books cut into new book sales.  I am an avid reader... Multiple books a month.  Why buy new when I can go to Half Price Books and get stuff quite a bit cheaper for the same experience?  I actually buy hard backs when I can -- often cheaper than "new" paperbacks and keep them in my collection.  Why?  Because new they are ridiculously expensive.



I hate trolls.

Systems I currently own:  360, PS3, Wii, DS Lite (2)
Systems I've owned: PS2, PS1, Dreamcast, Saturn, 3DO, Genesis, Gamecube, N64, SNES, NES, GBA, GB, C64, Amiga, Atari 2600 and 5200, Sega Game Gear, Vectrex, Intellivision, Pong.  Yes, Pong.

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I would also add that I don't think person to person sales or even organized person to person systems like Goozex are a bad thing. I don't think, however, that having gamestop push used games like a whore that needs her crack is a good thing for the industry as a whole.

Back on books. Books are sub $10 items in general (at least in paperback). They also don't generally have $10-40 million dollar budgets to recoup.

I certainly could be wrong, but I do believe that a more reasonable price charged from developers coupled with limits on how retailers can behave with IP software would be of benefit.

That said, as long as used games are around, and I can get 3 59.95 games (Total $180) for about $100, I'll keep doing it. I am, after all, not stupid. If an end did come to retailers flipping used games for a profit, I'd probably still get stuff from Ebay, Goozex, and Craigs List, but I would certainly get more stuff new than I currently do.



I hate trolls.

Systems I currently own:  360, PS3, Wii, DS Lite (2)
Systems I've owned: PS2, PS1, Dreamcast, Saturn, 3DO, Genesis, Gamecube, N64, SNES, NES, GBA, GB, C64, Amiga, Atari 2600 and 5200, Sega Game Gear, Vectrex, Intellivision, Pong.  Yes, Pong.

Question?

Am i the only one who hordes all of my games? I am not an avid reader so VGs are my library... well that and baseball cards... I kinda like Have a shelf full of AA and AAA titles from years past... in fact every game I have traded I have come to regret (except in a few special cases) like I traded in FE: RD for the Wii because GS was gonna give more 26 bucks for it towards my Madden preorder... I had already beaten it twice so i went with It... I recently have been wanting to play through it again with FE DS coming out....



End of 2009 Predictions (Set, January 1st 2009)

Wii- 72 million   3rd Year Peak, better slate of releases

360- 37 million   Should trend down slightly after 3rd year peak

PS3- 29 million  Sales should pick up next year, 3rd year peak and price cut

I tried to take advantage of that deal but the wii and ds used section is always terribly sparse.

they didn't have tos 2, fire emblem, okami, or battalion wars 2 used at all. Then I wennt over to the ds section they didn't have ff a2, ff 4, dragon quest 4, sonic dark brotherhood, or chrono trigger used.

I ended up getting advanced wars day of ruin used luckily though.



shakarak said:
I tried to take advantage of that deal but the wii and ds used section is always terribly sparse.

they didn't have tos 2, fire emblem, okami, or battalion wars 2 used at all. Then I wennt over to the ds section they didn't have ff a2, ff 4, dragon quest 4, sonic dark brotherhood, or chrono trigger used.

I ended up getting advanced wars day of ruin used luckily though.

 

 nintendo has a knack of making there games have that special thing that makes you not want to trade it in.



End of 2009 Predictions (Set, January 1st 2009)

Wii- 72 million   3rd Year Peak, better slate of releases

360- 37 million   Should trend down slightly after 3rd year peak

PS3- 29 million  Sales should pick up next year, 3rd year peak and price cut

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Mgs 4 and Final Fantasy Crisis core and Tekken DR are about only games that I have bought as a new.
Sure,just think this:
I buy game like Heavenly sword as used.Play it trough.Then sell it.Then someone picks it and does same thing.



 

 

Take my love, take my land..

bigjon said:
Question?

Am i the only one who hordes all of my games? I am not an avid reader so VGs are my library... well that and baseball cards... I kinda like Have a shelf full of AA and AAA titles from years past... in fact every game I have traded I have come to regret (except in a few special cases) like I traded in FE: RD for the Wii because GS was gonna give more 26 bucks for it towards my Madden preorder... I had already beaten it twice so i went with It... I recently have been wanting to play through it again with FE DS coming out....

 

I keep games that have significant replayability.  I don't do online, so online multiplayer doesn't count.  That means I keep games like Mario Kart Wii, Little Big Planet, Rock Band, and other games with significant long-term playability.  Otherwise, I sell them off.  Life is too short to go back and play old stuff.  My gaming time is limited and I want to enjoy new games on a regular basis.  That means "oldies" just don't see any play.  I sell them on Goozex, Ebay, Person to Person or trade them in when there is a special that makes it worthwhile and I do so before the game becomes a bargain bin title.

As an example, I bought Bioshock for my 360 on a B2G1 free sale.  I paid, with tax, about $35 for it.  After finishing it, I realized it wasn't something I would play again so I traded it in during a "special".  I got $25 base for it plus an extra 20% with a coupon then another 10% with my edge card.  I ended up getting about $32 bucks back for it in trade.  In other words, I rented it for about $3.  I can't always pull off a deal like this but when B2G1F deals are going on, it is quite possible.  I'll buy stuff, finish it, and if I like it, keep it.  Otherwise it goes back.  Rental could be an option, but I can't always get right to the game so the purchase makes more sense.  Plus, if I rent it and really like it, then I have to buy it and lose the rental fee....



I hate trolls.

Systems I currently own:  360, PS3, Wii, DS Lite (2)
Systems I've owned: PS2, PS1, Dreamcast, Saturn, 3DO, Genesis, Gamecube, N64, SNES, NES, GBA, GB, C64, Amiga, Atari 2600 and 5200, Sega Game Gear, Vectrex, Intellivision, Pong.  Yes, Pong.

kn said:
Bodhesatva said:

Just out of curiosity, why can the Jewelry, Movie, Gun, Book, Car, Music, and Appliance industries all thrive with bustling second hand markets, but games cannot? Given that practically every other comparable industry has a used saler market they live in harmony with, it seems like the problem is the Games industry, not second hand sales.

Here, let me lay this out with a math-ish analogy. If you see Industry [A] is losing money, and you pinpoint Issue [X], Issue [Y], and Issue [Z], you might claim that Issue [Y] is causing the losses. Without any further information, making conclusive statements isn't possible.

However, if you see Industry , Industry [C], Industry [D], Industry [E], Industry [F], Industry [G], and Industry [H] are doing fine, even though all of these industries also have Issue [Y], then it's fairly clear that Issue [Y] is not a dominating factor.

And again, that's essentially the place the gaming industry is in. Every other industry can not only survive but often thrive with a second hand market. So why can't video games? Either video games are super special and it's not fair to compare them to any other industry in the world, or there are other predominating factors which are much more significant and are the real cause for publisher's struggles. I'd propose again that the latter is more likely.

 

You are talking physical goods vs. Intellectual Property.  A washer and dryer continues to provide value until it dies.  Most video games are playable only so many times before it is time to move on...

As far as books are concerned, I would most certainly say that used books cut into new book sales.  I am an avid reader... Multiple books a month.  Why buy new when I can go to Half Price Books and get stuff quite a bit cheaper for the same experience?  I actually buy hard backs when I can -- often cheaper than "new" paperbacks and keep them in my collection.  Why?  Because new they are ridiculously expensive.

 

No, I'm not talking physical goods. Of the examples I gave, Books, Movies, and Music are all intellectual properties: I can add to this list application software (products like Windows OS or Adobe Photoshop) which are also resold.

What I gave you was a list of a wide variety of industries -- some of them sell big products (Cars, Appliances), some sell cheaper products (movies, guns). Some sell physical goods (Jewelry, and Houses, as another example) while others sell IPs (Games, Movies, Applications, etc).

And yet, despite the fact that these industries vary wildly and have vastly different products, they all manage to have thriving and succesful industries. All of them, except video games, apparently.

You are absolutely correct that used books cut in to sales of new books: so why are book makers not crying foul? Why are they still making money and continuing to march on? Why is no one arguing that the second hand book industry needs to be destroyed? Because everyone agrees its acceptable, or even good, for the industry. It's part of every market. This should highlight the difference for you. Everyone agrees that used sales in ALL of these markets have some effect on new sales. So why is it such a big deal in video games, when it all these other industries live in harmony with their second hand markets?

Again, the answer is that the business model gaming has developed is flawed.



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Bodhesatva said:
kn said:
Bodhesatva said:

Just out of curiosity, why can the Jewelry, Movie, Gun, Book, Car, Music, and Appliance industries all thrive with bustling second hand markets, but games cannot? Given that practically every other comparable industry has a used saler market they live in harmony with, it seems like the problem is the Games industry, not second hand sales.

Here, let me lay this out with a math-ish analogy. If you see Industry [A] is losing money, and you pinpoint Issue [X], Issue [Y], and Issue [Z], you might claim that Issue [Y] is causing the losses. Without any further information, making conclusive statements isn't possible.

However, if you see Industry , Industry [C], Industry [D], Industry [E], Industry [F], Industry [G], and Industry [H] are doing fine, even though all of these industries also have Issue [Y], then it's fairly clear that Issue [Y] is not a dominating factor.

And again, that's essentially the place the gaming industry is in. Every other industry can not only survive but often thrive with a second hand market. So why can't video games? Either video games are super special and it's not fair to compare them to any other industry in the world, or there are other predominating factors which are much more significant and are the real cause for publisher's struggles. I'd propose again that the latter is more likely.

 

You are talking physical goods vs. Intellectual Property. A washer and dryer continues to provide value until it dies. Most video games are playable only so many times before it is time to move on...

As far as books are concerned, I would most certainly say that used books cut into new book sales. I am an avid reader... Multiple books a month. Why buy new when I can go to Half Price Books and get stuff quite a bit cheaper for the same experience? I actually buy hard backs when I can -- often cheaper than "new" paperbacks and keep them in my collection. Why? Because new they are ridiculously expensive.

 

No, I'm not talking physical goods. Of the examples I gave, Books, Movies, and Music are all intellectual properties: I can add to this list application software (products like Windows OS or Adobe Photoshop) which are also resold.

What I gave you was a list of a wide variety of industries -- some of them sell big products (Cars, Appliances), some sell cheaper products (movies, guns). Some sell physical goods (Jewelry, and Houses, as another example) while others sell IPs (Games, Movies, Applications, etc).

And yet, despite the fact that these industries vary wildly and have vastly different products, they all manage to have thriving and succesful industries. All of them, except video games, apparently.

You are absolutely correct that used books cut in to sales of new books: so why are book makers not crying foul? Why are they still making money and continuing to march on? Why is no one arguing that the second hand book industry needs to be destroyed? Because everyone agrees its acceptable, or even good, for the industry. It's part of every market. This should highlight the difference for you. Everyone agrees that used sales in ALL of these markets have some effect on new sales. So why is it such a big deal in video games, when it all these other industries live in harmony with their second hand markets?

Again, the answer is that the business model gaming has developed is flawed.

 

I certainly understand and appreciate your argument but video games, specifically console games, have a very limited audience. The number of people that are willing to buy a used Finding Nemo is enormous and selling that video used probably doesn't cut into overall sales (as a percentage of total) nearly as much as selling used copies of, say, a $60 game for a console with a 10-20 million localised userbase. I think there are enough unique things about the video game industry that it can't be compared easily with other "second hand" marketplaces. Regardless, it is Intellectual Property and if the developers decide to put a "this title cannot be re-sold at retail" in the license agreement, put the little disk in a bag, and sticker over the envelope so, once broken, you've agreed, it's their perogative. I truly think something like this is coming in some format or another over the next 2-3 years... We'll see, I guess. Greed often triumphs over sound reasoning.....

Edit: Also, I do want to make a clear distinction between Intellectual Property and property in which you take title on delivery.  The two cannot really be meaningfully compared as the IP owner holds all right and title and the buyer of said IP -- that book, game, software, etc. is bound by the copyright agreement, license agreement, etc...  That sort of changes the balance of power in a second hand market (if the IP owner wants to).



I hate trolls.

Systems I currently own:  360, PS3, Wii, DS Lite (2)
Systems I've owned: PS2, PS1, Dreamcast, Saturn, 3DO, Genesis, Gamecube, N64, SNES, NES, GBA, GB, C64, Amiga, Atari 2600 and 5200, Sega Game Gear, Vectrex, Intellivision, Pong.  Yes, Pong.

bigjon said:
Question?

Am i the only one who hordes all of my games? I am not an avid reader so VGs are my library... well that and baseball cards... I kinda like Have a shelf full of AA and AAA titles from years past... in fact every game I have traded I have come to regret (except in a few special cases) like I traded in FE: RD for the Wii because GS was gonna give more 26 bucks for it towards my Madden preorder... I had already beaten it twice so i went with It... I recently have been wanting to play through it again with FE DS coming out....

 

Your not the only one. I used to keep all my games...had over 300 at one point, now i'm down to like 140 games in my collection. Wife and i just moved into a newly built house...in my gaming room i actually created a "shrine" of triple A games i have on a bookshelf.

 

Diablo 2 Collectors Edition

FF6 for SNES

WoW Collectors Edition

Battlefield 2

Goldeneye N64

Lunar 2 Collectors Edition

Castlevania: SOTRN

FF7, 8

KOTOR

FF5 for SNES

FFXI Beta

 

Stuff like that, i have it setup pretty nicely and most my friends think its pretty sweet when they first see it.

 

But i get rid of most my games now unless they have a lot of replay value and i just dont buy as many as i used to.



Had to change my sig to get some moderator to quit bitching about it......