Actually I think Josepheus was mentioned earlier, and as I said he wrote long after Jesus was believed to have died, and was in fact likely even born after Jesus's supposed death and therefore he never met the guy, and therefore anything he wrote on Jesus is only second hand accounts and therefore not evidence on its own.

Also wasn't the American war of independence started because colonial and british troops started firing on each other?

He wrote within 60 years of Jesus's death. I fail to see how that totally destroys someone's credibility. If this is your line of logic, then we must throw out any historical book based on history before the writers lifetime. It's not like Josephus couldn't of talked to eyewitnesses to Jesus's life, or family members. In fact, Josephus mentioned Jesus primarily based off of his brother - James, who was one of his Apostles.

The American Civil War started by political acts of the revolutionaries to reduce and remove British control of America. Eventually, it led to firefights, but was first started by political agression - such as the Boston Tea Party, and Britan's responce in the Massachusettes Government Act.

Furtermore, if your argument is that a war starts by troops firing on eachother - then Hamas has certainly declared war on Israel by the targeted suicide bombings and rocket attacks...So no condemnation of Israel should be justified - since they are merely at war with Hamas.

 I never said it destroyed his credibility, only cast doubt on it, only made it uncertain, also it is unlikely that Jesus's brother would live to the 80's-90's AD, as people died much earlier back then, heck even to the 60's AD would have been a feat for a man who was a contemporary of Jesus

True but it wasn't until the fighting that it really became them seeking independence, even earlier what they were seeking was fair representation.

Also while I don't blame Israel for going to war, I do blame them for targeting civilians, if you allow civilians to be targeted in war, then there was nothing wrong with 9/11 it was just a brilliant military strike, no matter how many civs are killed

James was younger than Jesus....He lived about 30yrs after Jesus' death. Josephus mentioned James at length, as he was the head of the Christian Church in Jerusalem until 62AD when he was murdered by the Jews via stoning. If you read Josephus' works, his work 'Antiquity of the Jews' was the written history of the Jewish faith, and how Christianity had effected it. If Christianity did not exist by 93AD....Then I sincerely question why Josephus would mention something that did not exist? Either Josephus was a liar, and every other book he wrote, would be struck as invalid (he wrote earlier than 93AD, as his first book The Jewish Wars was written in 74AD). He was born in 37AD, so he may have met James in person, or interviewed people that knew James and Jesus, personally.

Also, I'd really love to know how Israel is the one targeting civilians. Last I checked, Israel was boming Hamas targets, and the civilians were in collateral damage - but not the targets.

 When Hamas targets are in the middle of civilian areas, then you're targeting civilians, most weapons aren't precise enough to hit only one target

Yet you are supporting my argumetn, James was dead in 62, and Josepheus didn't have his work out until the 90's AD, so 30 years after james, once again we are dealing with very long time periods between these people's deaths and any writing of them, so it doesn't lend much credence to the fact that these were first hand accounts, rather it seems to indicate that these people did not know each other and were merely relating stories that they had heard.  This is where the uncertainty arises, because that era was much more primitive, with more dubious forms of communication and record keeping, so we have little evidence to support the vailidity of the writings.  Therefore they cannot be accepted as certain on their own, only with some outside proof can we accept the certainty of Jesus's existence

over 350 people are dead in 4 days and people ask "how terrorists are born?"

@stickball: when did we start considering the collateral damage as "an ok" thing?

So what kind of outside proof does one need to prove Jesus's existence?

You don't want first-hand accounts by Christians, so we refer to non-Christians such as Josephus. Josephus had many other books outside of Antiquity of the Jews....He was a well-known author by 93AD, as he had been a writer for 20+ years by then.

Furthermore, Josephus' writings have been used by archaeologists to determine very credible information concerning history around that period. For example, Ehud Netzer was able to discover the Tomb of Herod the Great (died in 3 BC. Who died well before Josephus was born) by reading Josephus' work. In fact, Josephus' work was so accurate, the tomb was exactly where he said it was. Despite the fact that Josephus wasn't born for another 40 years. So if Josephus' writings were so accurate about Herod, why are we throwing them out when it comes to others that Josephus wrote about? It would seem that you are trying to argue Jesus' legitimacy not based on factual analysis, but a desire for him not to exist. 

So exactly what do you want to prove anyone, or anything existed 2,000 years ago? For all we know, the Roman empire could of been a myth, too.

Stick, I never said we throw him out, but like you said, they found the tomb of Herod right where it was supposed to be, so why haven't we found a grave that says here like Jesus christ and the tomb guarded by angels or something? I'm only saying that the writing alone does not verify his existence, without something to back it up, show me something, that verifies his existence like with the Herod tomb. Also the only desire I have, is a desire for truth and evidence.

Also we have evidence of the Roman empire, based on the fact that empires have Beauracracy, evidence of wars, and great works that are built.

Let see;

Stoning, check

Defenstration; Check

Hanging; Check

Dropping a WALL on them Check

Burning alive...Check



And now this ffs somethings wrong in certain peoples brains

of course...that situation only tells us how they die.