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Forums - General Discussion - WSJ: Democracy loses if Prop. 8 is overturned.

akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Funny how now things like States Rights, and Constitutions matter to you. When it's to protect something you don't like, those concepts are just outdated.

This is a civil rights issue.  I don't want the state to have the right to tyrannize a minority.  Funny how civil rights and constitutions don't matter to you.  When it's the gays, those concepts are just outdated.

Regardless, it seems more important that the laws stay consistant.  Otherwise it can lead to further breaches of civil rights later.

Like how everyone is afraind more conservative judges on the SC might overturn Roe V Wade.

Why the heck should the Supreme Court be able to overturn a previous decision?

 

I'm definitely against overturning Roe v. Wade, but 5-4 decisions are prime targets for being overrturned, especially if the times have significantly changed.

I'm glad the Supreme Court overturns older decisions its made, otherwise our laws would be a complete mess.  For instance, if the Supreme Court had never overturned Swift v. Tyson, state law would be something that federal courts could flat out ignore.  This is no longer the case after the Erie decision where federal courts HAVE to apply that states law when the state's law is applicable to the case.

 

Couldn't that have been changed via say... actual legislation?

I think letting the courts change the deicsions let politicans off the hook for making important yet unpopular decisions.

Bad politicans are smart people who do dumb things for bribes and reelections.

Why worry about gay rights legislation when we can wait for the courts to do it?  I mean they don't need reelection!

Good polticians seem to be the people who do dumb things simply for reelection now a days.

 

 

The Supreme Court was already interpreting a piece of legislation.  And you underestimate how slow Congress can be to respond to a problem, and how willing the Supreme Court can be to strike down Congress's obtuse attempts to get around the Supreme Court's decisions.

Sometimes judges have to make those unpopular decisions.  That is one of the reasons why they in most cases aren't elected officials.  They are there to be the arbiters of the law and the Constitution, even if that means going against popular opinion.  I'm all for politicians who have there act together and aren't afraid to stand up for the issues they believe in, but the American public is about as fickle as it can be.  I'm not excusing politicians, but we are as much to blame as anyone for their shortcomings.  I mean we elect them every year after all.

 

What changed in the piece of legislation to change the interpretation?

Congress can be slow to a problem... maybe because they know the Supreme court can clean it up for them?

I mean hell, that bailout got passed pretty quickly considering pretty much everyone in the government was against it.

 



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Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:

Couldn't that have been changed via say... actual legislation?

I think letting the courts change the deicsions let politicans off the hook for making important yet unpopular decisions.

Bad politicans are smart people who do dumb things for bribes and reelections.

Why worry about gay rights legislation when we can wait for the courts to do it?  I mean they don't need reelection!

Good polticians seem to be the people who do dumb things simply for reelection now a days.

 

 

The Supreme Court was already interpreting a piece of legislation.  And you underestimate how slow Congress can be to respond to a problem, and how willing the Supreme Court can be to strike down Congress's obtuse attempts to get around the Supreme Court's decisions.

Sometimes judges have to make those unpopular decisions.  That is one of the reasons why they in most cases aren't elected officials.  They are there to be the arbiters of the law and the Constitution, even if that means going against popular opinion.  I'm all for politicians who have there act together and aren't afraid to stand up for the issues they believe in, but the American public is about as fickle as it can be.  I'm not excusing politicians, but we are as much to blame as anyone for their shortcomings.  I mean we elect them every year after all.

 

What changed in the piece of legislation to change the interpretation?

Congress can be slow to a problem... maybe because they know the Supreme court can clean it up for them?

I mean hell, that bailout got passed pretty quickly considering pretty much everyone in the government was against it.

 

Nothing whatsoever, the Supreme Court just admitted that the previous decision (about 40 years prior) was a bad one and essentially apologized for screwing it up so badly.  They said that they had flat out interpreted the statute differently than its plain meaning since they were trying to force the states into uniformity on their laws, which the states heavily resisted.  It just turned out so badly that they gave up and overruled the previous decision.

Once again, we elected the members of Congress, so we are as much to blame as they are.

America is based on bitching about something and then doing it anyways.  Haven't you learned that already :)

 

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:

Couldn't that have been changed via say... actual legislation?

I think letting the courts change the deicsions let politicans off the hook for making important yet unpopular decisions.

Bad politicans are smart people who do dumb things for bribes and reelections.

Why worry about gay rights legislation when we can wait for the courts to do it?  I mean they don't need reelection!

Good polticians seem to be the people who do dumb things simply for reelection now a days.

 

 

The Supreme Court was already interpreting a piece of legislation.  And you underestimate how slow Congress can be to respond to a problem, and how willing the Supreme Court can be to strike down Congress's obtuse attempts to get around the Supreme Court's decisions.

Sometimes judges have to make those unpopular decisions.  That is one of the reasons why they in most cases aren't elected officials.  They are there to be the arbiters of the law and the Constitution, even if that means going against popular opinion.  I'm all for politicians who have there act together and aren't afraid to stand up for the issues they believe in, but the American public is about as fickle as it can be.  I'm not excusing politicians, but we are as much to blame as anyone for their shortcomings.  I mean we elect them every year after all.

 

What changed in the piece of legislation to change the interpretation?

Congress can be slow to a problem... maybe because they know the Supreme court can clean it up for them?

I mean hell, that bailout got passed pretty quickly considering pretty much everyone in the government was against it.

 

Nothing whatsoever, the Supreme Court just admitted that the previous decision (about 40 years prior) was a bad one and essentially apologized for screwing it up so badly.  They said that they had flat out interpreted the statute differently than its plain meaning since they were trying to force the states into uniformity on their laws, which the states heavily resisted.  It just turned out so badly that they gave up and overruled the previous decision.

Once again, we elected the members of Congress, so we are as much to blame as they are.

America is based on bitching about something and then doing it anyways.  Haven't you learned that already :)

Yeah, but my point is congress can move fast when they want to.

 

 



The flip side of that though is that a statute can be repealed just as quickly as it can be passed. A court decision generally takes much longer to overturn. So that speed can come at a cost.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

here's my take on this:

Marriage - Any Man may marry any Woman, and vica versa if those two choose to make that commitment.
This does not grant unequal rights based on sexual preference, a gay man has the same right to marry a woman as a straight man does. Just because he isn't interested is his own issue to deal with.

Marriage to me is religious. If you want to give homosexual couples a civil union that grants all the legal rights and privileges of a marriage, then that's okay with me, but it is not a marriage unless it uses the religious ceremony, and making the distinction is important to maintaining the separation of church and state.

Now as far as the religious end of things, you leave that the fuck alone. If a religion says that it recognizes a marriage between 2 men or 2 women, that's fine, but you're not going to find a legitimate Christian, Jewish, Catholic, or Islamic custom that will allow that.
If you try to force the issue, you deserve to be dragged out and hung on a steeple. You don't decide religion, you either follow it or you don't. If you want to say you're christian and get the christian ceremony, then you follow the basic doctrines of that religion, and if you don't follow those doctrines, then I hardly see why you should get the religious validation on the matter.



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

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bardicverse said:
damkira said:
bardicverse said:

On a related but different topic, I am curious as to how a gay couple would go about raising a child. Would they leave the kid to make their own decision on being straight vs gay, or would they be the inverse of a traditional couple, and make the kid believe being gay is the correct way?

 

Uhm.. no. Being gay isn't a choice.

For some it is. Not all apply to this, but for some people, they choose to experiment and decide they prefer that way. I have friends of both types. Being gay isnt a hardwired thing for everyone. Don't paint all people of this persuasion with the same brush.

 

 The idea that it can be a choice only for some makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. Some people might be hardwires to play both sides of the fence, and some people might want to see what the fuss is all about I will grant you. The notion that it is only hardwired in some though is absolutely ludicrous.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Grey Acumen said:
Marriage to me is religious. If you want to give homosexual couples a civil union that grants all the legal rights and privileges of a marriage, then that's okay with me, but it is not a marriage unless it uses the religious ceremony, and making the distinction is important to maintaining the separation of church and state

 The opprtunity to keep marriage as a strictly religious idea went out the window many many years ago. You can elope and by-pass any possible religious ceremony but still end up being married. The concept is a legal one as well as a religious one in the United States. That means there should be no law discriminating against minorities that choose to marry different people. If you want to re-word the laws that specifiy marriage then go for it, but that seems like an up-hill battle to me.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Grey Acumen said:
here's my take on this:

Marriage - Any Man may marry any Woman, and vica versa if those two choose to make that commitment.
This does not grant unequal rights based on sexual preference, a gay man has the same right to marry a woman as a straight man does. Just because he isn't interested is his own issue to deal with.

Marriage to me is religious. If you want to give homosexual couples a civil union that grants all the legal rights and privileges of a marriage, then that's okay with me, but it is not a marriage unless it uses the religious ceremony, and making the distinction is important to maintaining the separation of church and state.

Now as far as the religious end of things, you leave that the fuck alone. If a religion says that it recognizes a marriage between 2 men or 2 women, that's fine, but you're not going to find a legitimate Christian, Jewish, Catholic, or Islamic custom that will allow that.
If you try to force the issue, you deserve to be dragged out and hung on a steeple. You don't decide religion, you either follow it or you don't. If you want to say you're christian and get the christian ceremony, then you follow the basic doctrines of that religion, and if you don't follow those doctrines, then I hardly see why you should get the religious validation on the matter.

But what about the gay Christian churches that perform gay Christian weddings for gay Christians?  Not all gays have to be atheists.  And the law doesn't force any religious person to do anything or perform anything or recognize anything at all.  It can't, and it won't.  Gay people can go to a gay church or to a court or do it themselves in their back yard.

What about me, I'm an atheist?  Do I need to get a civil union because G-d hates me too?

 



Gnizmo said:
Grey Acumen said:
Marriage to me is religious. If you want to give homosexual couples a civil union that grants all the legal rights and privileges of a marriage, then that's okay with me, but it is not a marriage unless it uses the religious ceremony, and making the distinction is important to maintaining the separation of church and state

 The opprtunity to keep marriage as a strictly religious idea went out the window many many years ago. You can elope and by-pass any possible religious ceremony but still end up being married. The concept is a legal one as well as a religious one in the United States. That means there should be no law discriminating against minorities that choose to marry different people. If you want to re-word the laws that specifiy marriage then go for it, but that seems like an up-hill battle to me.

I suppose I should say that it's not marriage unless it's approved by a religious institute, though of course I just shortened that to the religious ceremony, since that's the most typical manner in which that approval is given.

And uphill or not, it's a battle that is going to be, and it's the safest way to do it. The way you seem to be going is "since they gave an inch, we should just take a mile" and that just isn't going to fly.

The Ghost of RubangB said:

But what about the gay Christian churches that perform gay Christian weddings for gay Christians?  Not all gays have to be atheists.  And the law doesn't force any religious person to do anything or perform anything or recognize anything at all.  It can't, and it won't.  Gay people can go to a gay church or to a court or do it themselves in their back yard.

What about me, I'm an atheist?  Do I need to get a civil union because G-d hates me too?

A) Like I said, legitimate, calling themselves gay christians is going to be pretty rough. If they want to form a breakoff sect then I guess that's okay, but there is going to be backlash from standard christians. I think this would stand a better chance at gaining acceptance if they didn't try to throw around the "christian" term.

B) Honestly, yes, if you are an aethiest, I can hardly see how you should expect a religious ceremony, or why you would even want one. Isn't the point that you don't believe in god? Taking part in a ceremony in which you ask for God's approval and blessing, when you don't believe in god is a farce.

C) God doesn't hate you cause you're an aethiest, but how can you ask god for a favor when you don't believe he exists? I'm gonna go to my nonexistent uncle and ask him to lend me $50?

 



Seppukuties is like LBP Lite, on crack. Play it already!

Currently wrapped up in: Half Life, Portal, and User Created Source Mods
Games I want: (Wii)Mario Kart, Okami, Bully, Conduit,  No More Heroes 2 (GC) Eternal Darkness, Killer7, (PS2) Ico, God of War1&2, Legacy of Kain: SR2&Defiance


My Prediction: Wii will be achieve 48% market share by the end of 2008, and will achieve 50% by the end of june of 09. Prediction Failed.

<- Click to see more of her

 

Gnizmo said:
bardicverse said:
damkira said:
bardicverse said:

On a related but different topic, I am curious as to how a gay couple would go about raising a child. Would they leave the kid to make their own decision on being straight vs gay, or would they be the inverse of a traditional couple, and make the kid believe being gay is the correct way?

 

Uhm.. no. Being gay isn't a choice.

For some it is. Not all apply to this, but for some people, they choose to experiment and decide they prefer that way. I have friends of both types. Being gay isnt a hardwired thing for everyone. Don't paint all people of this persuasion with the same brush.

 

 The idea that it can be a choice only for some makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. Some people might be hardwires to play both sides of the fence, and some people might want to see what the fuss is all about I will grant you. The notion that it is only hardwired in some though is absolutely ludicrous.

So you're saying that ALL homosexuality or bi-sexuality is genetic/predetermined? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds? So, is wanting to band fat chicks hard-wired too? What about cougars? How about people with all sorts of crazy fetishes? Is the S&M couple down the street into that because of predetermined circumstances? After all, these also are sexual preferences and lifestyles. By your explanation, all of these are hard-wired into people, as opposed to a choice or natural free-will preference.