Legend11 said:
In reading these forums it's pretty obvious that some Wii fans feel slighted in the support third parties give to their console. I've also seen some statements that I believe are misconceptions or the merits of which are dubious. Anyways these are the things I'd like to point out and see what people have to say about them.
1. The Wii's "Blue Ocean" strategy seems to be conviently forgotten at times
I've seen threads in which some Wii fans praise the Wii's "Blue Ocean" strategy only to then see them completely ignore this fact when they talk about third party games. They compare the Wii's installed base 1:1 with the 360 and PS3 without taking that fact into account. Both the 360 and PS3 compare significantly better when comparing the 18-30 male demographic, one of the key demographics by the way for many of the games Wii fans want on their systems as opposed to the 360 and PS3.
2. Third parties are to blame for not taking chances with the Wii
Most companies play it safe, that's a given, and even companies that do take chances only take it so far. Look at Nintendo, even with all their money they still don't take some of the risks that people seem to want third parties to take. A prime example being Disaster: Day of Crisis and North America. It's the same story with HD consoles, how many RPGs or casual titles do you see on those consoles compared with hardcore ones? Microsoft and Sony both help to lessen the risks with many such titles with incentives, something that Nintendo apparently is not doing (that I know of).
3. Games are cheaper to develop for on the Wii
True but the numbers some people are throwing around are ridiculous. The kind of titles that some Wii fans want aren't $4 million dollar games, they're more in the $6-12 million dollar range. Once you start approaching that kind of budget the $10 premium that HD games have starts to remove the lower development cost advantage. Also multiplatform development lessens the risk by lowering the development cost per system, something that would be harder to do for major titles built from the ground up for only the Wii in mind.
4. The Wii's third party support will soon dominate for consoles like the DS does for handhelds
That might be true if you want to believe that the PSP is the equivalent to the 360/PS3/PC which to me it isn't. Look at the number of PSP titles that typically appear in North America and European charts compared to the combined totals for the other three systems. Also I would argue that the Wii actually is getting support similar to the DS when you take out the titles meant for the demographic that the 360, PS3, and PC dominate. There were double the amount of titles released for Wii in North America this year compared to the 360 for example. That number could rise to three times as many next year. Many of these titles are of course for the demographics that the Wii is much stronger in (casuals, kids, females).
5. Third parties are ignoring the Wii audience
That's simply not true. There are plenty of games being planned and released for the demographics in which the Wii dominates in. There was mention in the Sales forum that young children want the Wii more than the 360 and PS3. Guess what, there are many more games coming out on Wii for young children, far more than on the 360 and PS3. There are lots of casual games to cover those players as well. Nintendo of course covers the Nintendo hardcore. The only people not being covered as well are in the same demographic that the 360, PS3, and PC dominates.
6. The Wii sells more third party games
I'm not going to bother arguing this point since it's still up for debate but eventually it's extremely likely that the Wii will indeed sell more third party games. The problem is that it also has far more titles on the system sharing in those sales. For example this year alone the Wii will have over double the amount of games released on it as the 360. Next year it could be three times as many. That's a lot of titles to share sales with. It also causes games to typically go down in price quicker as the system becomes flooded with titles. Some DS developers are already complaining about this problem.
7. Wii Games have long legs
This is great for Nintendo's own games in which the price can stay the same for years but may not be for many third parties in which the price of their games drops over time. Would you as a third party rather have your title sell a million in it's first day with the game at full price or have to wait many months and hope it reaches that point? Also if the game is being discounted by retailers over time to move units it may affect the quantity they're willing to purchase up front next time.
8. Third parties making HD games will come begging to develop for the Wii eventually
This one I don't really understand. Since some of the cost third parties incurred in developing HD games is in developing the technology and expertise for the HD platforms it stands to reason they will get to a point where game development costs will drop. Add in the fact that the HD audience is expanding and they already have their products and technologies established on the HD platforms. It would lead one to expect HD game development would become less risky. If that is the case then why would they then drop HD development?
9. All HD developers are losing money in 360 and PS3 game development
I could easily make a list of developers that are making profits off the 360 and PS3. In fact if you look at financial reports from some companies some are doing very well. To expect all of them to be raking in profits is absurd. Also if the Wii is the magic profit pill some people claim it is then please explain THQ's last financial report. You know the one in which the WII and HD consoles have changed positions in terms of THQ's net sales but resulting in THQ making far less money.
Anyways hopefully this leads to some real discussion rather than just the perpuation of the same old claims.
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I'm kind of confused why everyone is so impressed by this...I'll admit he seems to have given it some thought and I won't knock him for that, but this is a thread where he propped up straw man arguments and knocked them down..that is nothing to be celebrated. It's easy to make a point when you can phrase your opponent's argument in a flawed way and they can't talk back.
So allow me to reapply some sanity to the thread for a moment:
1) What, specifically, are they forgetting to factor in? And what data are you using to support your assertion about the demographics? What do you classify as "significantly" better? And quantitatively speaking how do you think we should modify the 1:1 comparison to factor in these alleged differences?
2) Most companies do play it safe, but that doesn't mean it is Nintendo's job to moneyhat them out of their shell. Moneyhatting is not viable long term strategy, just because Sony and MS engage in it doesn't mean Nintendo should as well. If anything the incentives are required by MS and Sony to bring a level offer in comparison to Nintendo.
3) While an extra $10 multiplied over the sales of 2 or 3 million units can make up a big difference in the cost to develop a game it is completely shortsighted to look at it this way and nobody who invests in game development ever would. It fundamentally ignores that the extra development costs equate to a longer dev cycle. If that extra $10 means you make an extra 20% on every game sold that is great, but what does that matter if it took you 50% longer to make the game? Your capital was tied up for 50% longer and over the course of two of those development cycles the Wii game will complete three cycles. The extra cash you've earned on that $10 increase is less than you would have made investing in 3 Wii projects. The result is a 25% loss in revenue for going HD, and that alone nullifies the $10 revenue advantage while still leaving the Wii with a lower development cost advantage, even across 3 Wii cycles compared to 2 HD.
4) This is a good example of a straw man argument. The real argument was that the Wii would pick up third party support as the generation went on and that the DS was an example of this happening. "Domination" is an extreme word you've added and without it the statement is flatly true. I have to give you credit though, the reason the Wii won't dominate third parties like the DS did is largely because the PSP is not a PS3/360 analogue.
5) Which demographics are you asserting they dominate in and according to what data are you basing it on? I hope the anecdotes in the forums weren't your primary reasons. In any case you yourself are now putting forward a myth, the idea that the Wii is lacking in hardcore games..but that is a topic for another thread (and it has been many times and debunked equally as many). Honestly it seems like this whole thread was an exercise in assuming that the Wii had hardcore game problems and moving the debate to "why" it has that problem insted of "if" it has that problem in the first place.
6) A fair point, but the thing you're missing is that a cludge of games will have two effects. While it will lessen the appeal of some developers looking to enter or stay in the market it will also incentivize other developers to distinguish themselves or find a new niche within the existing market. This is the exact market force that brought the PS2's library from shovelware to quality, and unlike the PSP example the PS2 example is very similar.
7) Third parties sell their games day 1, the retail outletts are the ones trying to sell copies months later. In any case there have been large launches and long legs alike with the Wii, most of the casual oriented games have the long legs but occasionally a simply high quality title will as well (ie RE4).
8) I don't understand it either..probably because it is a straw man argument =P Now if you were asking why would devs who are currently doing HD games eventually branch out into the Wii? Well the answer to that is a simple one of diversifying your investments and in general just smart business practices, it doesn't mean they are going to abandon the HD systems though and I wasn't aware the argument had ever been made by anyone credible in the first place.
9) Another straw man, who is making the argument that "all" HD developers are losing money? I've yet to hear that. What I have heard is that many of them are losing money, and that much is true based on their own quarterly statements. It's partially a product of the investment landscape the HD consoles present but it's also due to economic issues as well. Whatever the reasons it is true that several companies are struggling right now on HD consoles.
Leatherhat on July 6th, 2012 3pm. Vita sales:"3 mil for COD 2 mil for AC. Maybe more. " thehusbo on July 6th, 2012 5pm. Vita sales:"5 mil for COD 2.2 mil for AC."
