"What's the point of the cell"
That question is so blasphemous I won't even entertain it with an answer.
| greenmedic88 said: AMD 3 core CPUs. Of course no games actually take advantage of that architecture. The old G5 Macs utilized quad core PPCs on two chips, but again, since those were only available for workstation grade computers, no games really took full advantage of that architecture either. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the 360 architecture is "harder" to develop for than any other platform. If a developer made that claim, it would be a first. |
No it wouldn't be a new claim... Our dear friend Gabe Newell has done it atleast... :)
"He recently lambasted both Microsoft and Sony for failing to make life easier on next-gen developers."
However that article wasn't the one I was looking for. I couldn't find that one without waybackmachine. The other article is surely also gone in to bit heaven. Anyway Newell said something like he can live with iOE, but it will make developing a bit harder. Also he added that when you add multiple cores to that it will be even harder and lastly he said that assymmetric platform makes it more or less impossible to make games efficiently. I think he used numbers or something.
Edit:
Found it,
"Technologically, I think every game developer should be terrified of the next generation of processors. Your existing code, you can just throw it away. It's not going to be helpful in creating next generation game titles,"
"Yes, it is different. It is much more difficult now to write code that will have predictable behavior. We have performance problems now in the out-of-order universe because we have programmers who can't figure out why the changes they made caused the system to behave the way it does."
Source: http://www.edge-online.com/news/quotyour-existing-code-throw-it-awayquot
Deneidez said:
No it wouldn't be a new claim... Our dear friend Gabe Newell has done it atleast... :)
"He recently lambasted both Microsoft and Sony for failing to make life easier on next-gen developers."
However that article wasn't the one I was looking for. I couldn't find that one without waybackmachine. The other article is surely also gone in to bit heaven. Anyway Newell said something like he can live with iOE, but it will make developing a bit harder. Also he added that when you add multiple cores to that it will be even harder and lastly he said that assymmetric platform makes it more or less impossible to make games efficiently. I think he used numbers or something. Edit: Found it, "Technologically, I think every game developer should be terrified of the next generation of processors. Your existing code, you can just throw it away. It's not going to be helpful in creating next generation game titles," "Yes, it is different. It is much more difficult now to write code that will have predictable behavior. We have performance problems now in the out-of-order universe because we have programmers who can't figure out why the changes they made caused the system to behave the way it does." Source: http://www.edge-online.com/news/quotyour-existing-code-throw-it-awayquot |
wasnt half life originally ported for the DC.. if they could manage that then I dont see how the 360's lack of a HDD should be a problem. Its not as big a problem as dealing with the cell's complex architecture
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
owner of : atari 2600, commodore 64, NES,gameboy,atari lynx, genesis, saturn,neogeo,DC,PS2,GC,X360, Wii
5 THINGS I'd like to see before i knock out:
a. a AAA 3D sonic title
b. a nintendo developed game that has a "M rating"
c. redesgined PS controller
d. SEGA back in the console business
e. M$ out of the OS business
| arsenicazure said: wasnt half life originally ported for the DC.. if they could manage that then I dont see how the 360's lack of a HDD should be a problem. Its not as big a problem as dealing with the cell's complex architecture |
Amount of data in games today is enormous when you compare it to amount of data back then. Also players haven't developed as fast as amount of data. That means more problems with developing and some times annoyances for end users as well. For example pop-up in GTA IV, elevator 'hours' in mass effect etc.
Cell just needs to be programmed properly to reap the rewards
Most Devs are lazy and dont know what they are doing thats why the PS3 games look shabby compared to the Xbox.
Eventually PS3 games will look a lot better because games developers will discover a thousand shortcuts and make the Cell twice as powerful.
Games so far have only used 20 percent of the power of the Cell.
Just wait you'll see !
Eventually PS3 games will look a lot better because games developers will discover a thousand shortcuts and make the Cell twice as powerful.
|
Yeah but when will that be? One year? Two-three years? More?
At that time maybe PS3 will be distant third in the "next gen" race (even if one of the competitor is a last gen console...), and the developers won't care anymore doing the games better looking than on the X360. Just as they did in the PS2 era with the more powerful first Xbox.
Third place is the last place is this game...
| Cypher1980 said: Cell just needs to be programmed properly to reap the rewards Most Devs are lazy and dont know what they are doing thats why the PS3 games look shabby compared to the Xbox. Eventually PS3 games will look a lot better because games developers will discover a thousand shortcuts and make the Cell twice as powerful. Games so far have only used 20 percent of the power of the Cell. Just wait you'll see ! |
Devs are not lazy, they're expensive. Blaming devs doesn't make sense, unless you somehow think that they assign lazier staff to work on the PS3 versions. If you know that's the case, please give us the scoop.
Where does your 20% figure come from? From what I've seen it's closer to 40-50%, but that's just my observation (including that KZ2 diagram).
My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957
Deneidez said:
No it wouldn't be a new claim... Our dear friend Gabe Newell has done it atleast... :)
"He recently lambasted both Microsoft and Sony for failing to make life easier on next-gen developers."
However that article wasn't the one I was looking for. I couldn't find that one without waybackmachine. The other article is surely also gone in to bit heaven. Anyway Newell said something like he can live with iOE, but it will make developing a bit harder. Also he added that when you add multiple cores to that it will be even harder and lastly he said that assymmetric platform makes it more or less impossible to make games efficiently. I think he used numbers or something. Edit: Found it, "Technologically, I think every game developer should be terrified of the next generation of processors. Your existing code, you can just throw it away. It's not going to be helpful in creating next generation game titles," "Yes, it is different. It is much more difficult now to write code that will have predictable behavior. We have performance problems now in the out-of-order universe because we have programmers who can't figure out why the changes they made caused the system to behave the way it does." Source: http://www.edge-online.com/news/quotyour-existing-code-throw-it-awayquot |
Realize that everything Newell says is marked by the fact that Valve's Steam is effectively a "4th console" within the PC gaming market itself. Like any other PR man speaking for his own platform, do you think he might be inclined to extol the virtues of PC development while simultaneously condemning current console hardware?
Valve stands to reap much greater profits as a distributor through it's own "console within a box" service than as a developer creating ports to run on mass consumer proprietary consoles. It means receiving distro fees as opposed to paying them to Sony or MS.
If it weren't for the fact that console gaming has become such a large industry, I'm sure Newell wouldn't feel inclined to port any of Valve's games to a console, much less state a scathing opinion on the state of the current generation's hardware.
Think about the motives of an individual before automatically assuming it's a given fact regardless of whether you choose to take the opinions of your respective gaming gods at face value or not.
If you haven't already noticed, most of the biggest names in gaming development have an annoying propensity to publicly state some of the most biased claims that makes the motives of their stated opinions questionable at best.
| greenmedic88 said: Realize that everything Newell says is marked by the fact that Valve's Steam is effectively a "4th console" within the PC gaming market itself. Like any other PR man speaking for his own platform, do you think he might be inclined to extol the virtues of PC development while simultaneously condemning current console hardware? Valve stands to reap much greater profits as a distributor through it's own "console within a box" service than as a developer creating ports to run on mass consumer proprietary consoles. It means receiving distro fees as opposed to paying them to Sony or MS. If it weren't for the fact that console gaming has become such a large industry, I'm sure Newell wouldn't feel inclined to port any of Valve's games to a console, much less state a scathing opinion on the state of the current generation's hardware. Think about the motives of an individual before automatically assuming it's a given fact regardless of whether you choose to take the opinions of your respective gaming gods at face value or not. If you haven't already noticed, most of the biggest names in gaming development have an annoying propensity to publicly state some of the most biased claims that makes the motives of their stated opinions questionable at best. |
Well, you are right about Newell... Still anything he whines about is usually true. How about arstechnica article about the same thing? :)
"Furthermore, the Xenon may be capable of running six threads at once, but the three types of branch-intensive code listed above are not as amenable to high levels of thread-level parallelization as graphics code. On the other hand, these types of code do benefit greatly from out-of-order execution, which Xenon lacks completely, a decent amount of execution core width, which Xenon also lacks; branch prediction hardware, which Xenon is probably short on; and large caches, which Xenon is definitely short on. The end result is a recipe for a console that provides developers with a wealth of graphics resources but that asks them to do more with less on the non-graphical side of gaming."
"Even if the PPE's branch prediction is significantly better than I think it is, the relatively meager 1MB L2 cache that the game control, AI, and physics code will have to share with procedural synthesis and other graphics code will ensure that programmers have a hard time getting good performance out of non-graphics parts of the game.
...
The Cell has only one PPE to the Xenon's three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window. (Don't bother suggesting that the PS3 can use its SPEs for branch-intensive code, because the SPEs lack branch prediction entirely.)"
For example really advanced AI -> branches, more branches, even more branches... Thats one reason why there won't be 'wow' moments with current gen AI. Anyway it also affects development. iOE is just pain with more complicated programs.
Source: http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars/7
On PC there isn't problems like this, because it uses more advanced OoOE. :)
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