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Forums - Gaming Discussion - PS3.5 and XBOX540

noslodecoy on 17 November 2008
theprof00 said:

noslodecoy said:
This whole scenario is ignorant of the speed in which technology is developed. To set the technological limits of a next gen console several years before it's release is just silly. It sounds like you'd like a next gen console with backwards compatibility today and this is an excuse for why they could release it so early.

Also, there's going to be load times no matter what. You can increase the bus speed, but you'll always still be limited by the media. At this time, you're not going to spin a DVD any faster and it's too expensive to increase the speed of BluRay (at this time of course). That's where installs come in, as hard drives have a much faster seek time and a much faster load time. Textures don't magically appear in memory. They have to be loaded from the media and transferred. The media is the bottleneck.

PS - I don't know if any of this was mentioned. I got bored of reading without giving my input ;).

 

You aren't technically setting the limits as much as you are just releasing the next gen console now. The next gen actual console would give the same kind of performance boost that the intermediary would see, but on next gen games.

And you are right, it is an excuse to release early. But we have seen how early releases can do a hell of a job on the market, ala 360.
As far as the load times, this would probably be more suited to the ps3 since the BR is much more capable of faster speeds even at this point in time. The ps3 currently has a 2xBR drive, currently there are 8x BR drives capable of >300Mbits/sec as opposed to ~80Mbits.

EDIT 1: Lol, with a conveniently place mouse click, I accidently hit post before writing anything.  Editing...

EDIT 2:

So you want a new Blu-ray Drive.  That's an acceptable request.  And probably the only thing you could upgrade on a console besides the hard drive.  If you start monkeying with the internal specs, you're giving developers more leeway.  Even a RAM upgrade.

Developers who develop games like Killzone 2 or Gears of War 2 are looking to squeeze everything out of the console.  These games are looking to deliver eyecandy which helps hype the game.  It's part of it's appeal.  If you allow technicle specs to change to increase performance, you're giving the developers an excuse to release a game with a low framerate.  The developers could just that it needs to be played with "such and such" specs to gain the optimum experience.

It's a slippery slope and as others said... it sounds like a PC.

Maybe you'll get your upgraded Blu-ray drive in another SKU, but asking for a PS3.5 is unrealistic and unpracticle in too many ways.



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theprof00 on 17 November 2008
RolStoppable said:
theprof00 said:
RolStoppable said:
theprof00 said:
Rol, all I'm saying is that I would love a console that played like my old snes in terms of speed. Is that "stupid" rol?
your argument is less than paper thin other than "That's not good at all"

Actually my argument is "That makes no sense at all".

nice how you didn't answer it at all.

So you want disc based games without loading times? That's possible by arranging the data on the disc in a clever way. But since nearly all games released nowadays have loading times, hardly any developers bother to aim for no loading times at all.

That's the beauty though. Well at least for sony. BR drives are more than capable of increasing media reading by 4-5 times whereas dvd9 is pretty much maxed out. You just put a much faster BR drive in it.

BR drives of that speed probably cost about 200$ to make. With the new processor switch and costs coming down, a rolls royce model could theoretically be made for the price of a brand new ps3 on nov 17th 2006



theprof00 on 17 November 2008
noslodecoy said:
theprof00 said:

noslodecoy said:
This whole scenario is ignorant of the speed in which technology is developed. To set the technological limits of a next gen console several years before it's release is just silly. It sounds like you'd like a next gen console with backwards compatibility today and this is an excuse for why they could release it so early.

Also, there's going to be load times no matter what. You can increase the bus speed, but you'll always still be limited by the media. At this time, you're not going to spin a DVD any faster and it's too expensive to increase the speed of BluRay (at this time of course). That's where installs come in, as hard drives have a much faster seek time and a much faster load time. Textures don't magically appear in memory. They have to be loaded from the media and transferred. The media is the bottleneck.

PS - I don't know if any of this was mentioned. I got bored of reading without giving my input ;).

 

You aren't technically setting the limits as much as you are just releasing the next gen console now. The next gen actual console would give the same kind of performance boost that the intermediary would see, but on next gen games.

And you are right, it is an excuse to release early. But we have seen how early releases can do a hell of a job on the market, ala 360.
As far as the load times, this would probably be more suited to the ps3 since the BR is much more capable of faster speeds even at this point in time. The ps3 currently has a 2xBR drive, currently there are 8x BR drives capable of >300Mbits/sec as opposed to ~80Mbits.

EDIT 1: Lol, with a conveniently place mouse click, I accidently hit post before writing anything.  Editing...

EDIT 2:

So you want a new Blu-ray Drive.  That's an acceptable request.  And probably the only thing you could upgrade on a console besides the hard drive.  If you start monkeying with the internal specs, you're giving developers more leeway.  Even a RAM upgrade.

Developers who develop games like Killzone 2 or Gears of War 2 are looking to squeeze everything out of the console.  These games are looking to deliver eyecandy which helps hype the game.  It's part of it's appeal.  If you allow technicle specs to change to increase performance, you're giving the developers an excuse to release a game with a low framerate.  The developers could just that it needs to be played with "such and such" specs to gain the optimum experience.

It's a slippery slope and as others said... it sounds like a PC.

Maybe you'll get your upgraded Blu-ray drive in another SKU, but asking for a PS3.5 is unrealistic and unpracticle in too many ways.

Yes, I could see devs getting over excited about RAM, and doing something like what you described. I don't know if it were possible to implement a "Sony" seal of approval, the way nintendo used to do in that regard.

Well, I think that having forward compatibility is just such a great idea. It was already proposed by MS guys, i think, a little while back. So it's not a novel concept, But this would be a great way to ensure FC but not limit next gen too much by this gen.

 Also, I think it would give both sides a chance to really make the most out of margin profit.



Untamoi on 17 November 2008

Sounds bad idea to me. You said it would be Rolls Royce of the consoles and it probably would sells as much or less. If it would be $600 or even $500 and people would know there would be better console coming in couple of years then very few would buy it. Consumers are suprisingly patient and can easily wait couple of years. Even those wanting best equipment would just skip the console for next generation console (this has happened before). They can't even mention forward compability in their marketing because that would reveal that a better next generation console is coming soon. And that would kill sales totally.

Mandatory installs, loading times etc are not the reason why PS3 and 360 haven't sold better and they are a non-issue for majority. Most people don't have a big problem with loading times. And because all games are on cheaper consoles there in no reason to buy overpriced consoles to play the same games.



theprof00 on 17 November 2008
Untamoi said:
Sounds bad idea to me. You said it would be Rolls Royce of the consoles and it probably would sells as much or less. If it would be $600 or even $500 and people would know there would be better console coming in couple of years then very few would buy it. Consumers are suprisingly patient and can easily wait couple of years. Even those wanting best equipment would just skip the console for next generation console (this has happened before). They can't even mention forward compability in their marketing because that would reveal that a better next generation console is coming soon. And that would kill sales totally.

Mandatory installs, loading times etc are not the reason why PS3 and 360 haven't sold better and they are a non-issue for majority. Most people don't have a big problem with loading times. And because all games are on cheaper consoles there in no reason to buy overpriced consoles to play the same games.

I agree those are all points that should be carefully scrutinized and developed further.

To start however, I must admit that I did not think everything through completely because such a thing would take hours to examine every possible flaw and correct them without any input from anyone else, so having you guys tell me what's bad about it is a microcosm of what happens at board meetings and such. My point is, if an idea like this were to be brought up at an MS or sony board meeting, this would be the likely flow of events, and the fact that each of these obstacles are surmountable is a strong case for the argument.

The way this console would be marketed would be as an "Elite" version similar to the already in place xbox, so it is not readily apparent to the public that this is actually a different console, but just an "elite" version of the existing one. However the architecture would be one that supports future game development of the next-gen console. In short: Nobody would know that this system had Forward compatibility, until shortly after the ps4 came out.

And no, mandatory installs, loading times etc aren't the reason the haven't sold better. But those things aren't exactly indicative of "next-gen" either. I believe that people are willing to buy the "better" system whichis indicated by new SKU ps3 sales such as gunmetal and the new 160GB one. I do not support your view though that there is no reason to buy overpriced consoles to play the same games because of support for things like "multi-tiered" SKU's.

To get back to the point, it is a very rough idea at the moment. However, could a sooner-than-you-think nextnext-gen system arrive? I think you should all think about some positives for a moment and really see what possibilities there are, because the barriers you are all proposing are not too difficult.

For example, what would the competition do, if after release, news was "leaked" that ps3.5 was Forward Compatible. Would this force another company to try to out do the specifications? Would knowing that another even better system was coming out soon force a hand?

 

EDIT: @Rol- actually your point was "This thread is stupid". Get back under the bridge.



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Dgc1808 on 17 November 2008

Sounds like a Horrible idea to me....

Just an opinion...



4 ≈ One

theprof00 on 17 November 2008

it may sound horrible to you but the xbox elite is one step away from being the same thing.



Falcon095 on 17 November 2008

Wait.. What?



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Resident_Hazard on 18 November 2008
mike_intellivision said:
This would confuse people more than the current set-up of multiple SKUs.

I went back to console gaming because I didn't like the mess that was PC gaming. If consoles go to it, someone will make a console that is different and get all the sales.

Mike from Morgantown

 

 

Yeah, they'll call it "Wii."