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Forums - General - Do you believe in god, if not do you believe in something else?

vlad321 on 17 November 2008
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
chapset said:

Personally I don't really believe in the god they talk about in the bible, it's too human made, but i do believe something else must be the reason why everything is so perfect, every little thing on earth and in the universe has a purpose, an utility. So it made me wonder what is beyond all this? sometimes i just say to my self: this is crazy talk, things are the way they are for no good reason it's just like that. And since gamers are the smartest being on earth and have a lot of time to waist maybe you guys and girls (not likely) could help me clear this.

That's basically called "Deism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Old Honest Abe Lincoln was a Deist.

Benjamin Franklin too i believe.

 

Deism only came about back in the day (several centuries ago) so that scientific and political leaders could say they don't believe in god without them commiting social suicide.

The church would have ridiculued ANY scientist back then if he didn't admit to god, and hoenstly, would Lincoln have been even considered if he outright said he didn't believe in god? Same thing with Franklin, most people would have thorown him in the "godless damned" pile and not listened to any reason.

Really? 

Because from my research it looked like Deism was created because of the pointless struggles between different religions in an attempt to get them to all agree on the main points they had... basically the guy hated the church and wanted something better... i forget his name.  Some british lord.

Ah it's in the Wikipedia Edward Herbert Cherbury...

still looks similar to that after all the reforms and such.  So i'm going to say you have a bit of a misconception there.

 

 

Oh I agree that Deism covers the very general points of most religions, pure theism at its best. That does not remove the fact that it is being used and probably its strongest perprotrators only used it so that they wouldn't be completely discreditted by every single church in existance, especially when the church had so much power back in the day. Deism is a cop-out reiligion for people that want to be believed and not discreditted (or to not get diowned by yourparents) and it has always made me sad to know people had to go to such extents to be heard.

Where is your proof on that one?  Seems like a big stretch.

If anything i'd say there was very little reason to be an atheist around the time Deism started... as things like evolution weren't even widely understood or exlained so there was no good reason for where humans came from.

Heck, there wasn't even a good arguement out there against the metaphysical when Deism was created.... not even a "backdoor" one.

There was little to no reason for anyone to be an atheist at that time... it made more sense to believe got just hated you or was testing you or something.

 

It wasn't atheism, it was going against what had been put forward by the current church. Earth is flat, everything rotates around Eart, and other such claims came in direct contrast with what the church was teaching. Many great minds were imprisoned or killed, Copernicus was saved because they couldn't read his notes and Galileo was almost killed had his patron not been around and had he not conceded some points to the Pope. Now these two, from what I've read, were Christians, fulling supporting Jesus.

Now imagine what starts to happen as more and more thing start encroaching upon the church's teachings (Newton), and what happens when the same great minds start wondering about whether there was a god at all or not. Back then the churches weren't as thirsty for blood, but they were powerful enough to completely discredit anyone. Scientists and philosophers needed a way to be heard and not to be labeled as godless abominations, so they took up Deism.

That doesn't actually seem to be the truth of the matter based on the facts though.  Just seems like your making a wild conspiracy theory type rationalization based opon your own beliefs.

Deism was particularly a target for churches actually.

Anyone who called themself a deist was taking a great risk to do so.

 

 

Greater than outright denying or doubting god?



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Kasz216 on 17 November 2008
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
chapset said:

Personally I don't really believe in the god they talk about in the bible, it's too human made, but i do believe something else must be the reason why everything is so perfect, every little thing on earth and in the universe has a purpose, an utility. So it made me wonder what is beyond all this? sometimes i just say to my self: this is crazy talk, things are the way they are for no good reason it's just like that. And since gamers are the smartest being on earth and have a lot of time to waist maybe you guys and girls (not likely) could help me clear this.

That's basically called "Deism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Old Honest Abe Lincoln was a Deist.

Benjamin Franklin too i believe.

 

Deism only came about back in the day (several centuries ago) so that scientific and political leaders could say they don't believe in god without them commiting social suicide.

The church would have ridiculued ANY scientist back then if he didn't admit to god, and hoenstly, would Lincoln have been even considered if he outright said he didn't believe in god? Same thing with Franklin, most people would have thorown him in the "godless damned" pile and not listened to any reason.

Really? 

Because from my research it looked like Deism was created because of the pointless struggles between different religions in an attempt to get them to all agree on the main points they had... basically the guy hated the church and wanted something better... i forget his name.  Some british lord.

Ah it's in the Wikipedia Edward Herbert Cherbury...

still looks similar to that after all the reforms and such.  So i'm going to say you have a bit of a misconception there.

 

 

Oh I agree that Deism covers the very general points of most religions, pure theism at its best. That does not remove the fact that it is being used and probably its strongest perprotrators only used it so that they wouldn't be completely discreditted by every single church in existance, especially when the church had so much power back in the day. Deism is a cop-out reiligion for people that want to be believed and not discreditted (or to not get diowned by yourparents) and it has always made me sad to know people had to go to such extents to be heard.

Where is your proof on that one?  Seems like a big stretch.

If anything i'd say there was very little reason to be an atheist around the time Deism started... as things like evolution weren't even widely understood or exlained so there was no good reason for where humans came from.

Heck, there wasn't even a good arguement out there against the metaphysical when Deism was created.... not even a "backdoor" one.

There was little to no reason for anyone to be an atheist at that time... it made more sense to believe got just hated you or was testing you or something.

 

It wasn't atheism, it was going against what had been put forward by the current church. Earth is flat, everything rotates around Eart, and other such claims came in direct contrast with what the church was teaching. Many great minds were imprisoned or killed, Copernicus was saved because they couldn't read his notes and Galileo was almost killed had his patron not been around and had he not conceded some points to the Pope. Now these two, from what I've read, were Christians, fulling supporting Jesus.

Now imagine what starts to happen as more and more thing start encroaching upon the church's teachings (Newton), and what happens when the same great minds start wondering about whether there was a god at all or not. Back then the churches weren't as thirsty for blood, but they were powerful enough to completely discredit anyone. Scientists and philosophers needed a way to be heard and not to be labeled as godless abominations, so they took up Deism.

That doesn't actually seem to be the truth of the matter based on the facts though.  Just seems like your making a wild conspiracy theory type rationalization based opon your own beliefs.

Deism was particularly a target for churches actually.

Anyone who called themself a deist was taking a great risk to do so.

 

 

Greater than outright denying or doubting god?

Somewhat.  The Churches branded Diesm as Atheism that tried to trick people.

So it'd basically be equal to not being an atheist, but rather trying to convert other people to atheism. (Granted Atheism itself wasn't big, since there was little to no reason to be an atheist... atheist taking off the same time deism died off... around the time of Darwin.)

So yeah, being a deist would be more dangerous then being an eccentric who was just an atheist.



vlad321 on 17 November 2008

^ See now that is something I have not encountered among my studies, limited as they are. They were probably persecuted the most yes, but back then atheism barely even existed, and people who were never spoke about it. It was the exact same as the time when Christianity was prohibited in the Roman empire, people just hid that fact, others hid behind Deism.

On another note, while deism was attacked it was never absolutely discounted as a relgion at all, this is all thanks to the Protestant Reformation. The group that gained the least from the Reformation were the agnostics/atheists. They gained nothing, but they did grow in numbers.



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Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Strategyking92 on 17 November 2008
vlad321 said:
Strategyking92 said:

OBJECTION!

 

 

Ha, I know it may seem strange to you, seeing as how religious people believe in something from the past, and are totally ignorant. But I know There are still places in the world that are not civilized, some placed engulfed in isolation, war.

*HIGHLIGHTED* I was arguing the fact that early followers of jesus had no reason for preaching about a false prophet. They obviously witnessed his miracles.

Yes, the muslims went through crap, but they were almost defeated until another saudi tribe intervened because of they thought a divine entity was helping muhammad and his tribe. They would've been destroyed if they hadn't gotten help... As for the Jews, I don't know, they might've just gotten the bad side of the coin flip.

 

And so we can clarify this: The differences between Rome and New guinea are... everything. Rome at least had basic medicine and technology and an understanding of things. It would be like comparing Cave men with Roman people.... So if you didn't know the difference.

*UNDERLINED* the thing about the christian faith is that we actually have documents from the time, of the apostles speaking. yes, I guess they could be exaggerated.... I don't believe so..... but what they (apostles) preached is that jesus was lord. Back then you had tons of religions, choosing the one that was the most likely to get you killed wouldn't have been a wise one, unless you genuinely believed it would deliver you from hell. Not to mention the fact that , since Rome isn't Guinea, I might remind you, the origins of the christian faith had to actually start. And that means jesus had to be special in some way, and to chrsitans, that means he is the divine. Otherwise, he would've just have been a kook back in those days.

 

Roman were more advanced, yes, and that's why the miracles they saw seemed so much more complex and divine. To the tribes, who aren't as advanced, even the simplest showmanship of something they don't understand is a miracle, and since they don't understand much it doesn't take as much to pull off a miracle. This is the reason why we haven't seen a grand showmanship of a miracle in cinturies, we've come to know better than we did millenia ago.

The fundamental difference between riligion and science is the effect of what happens when something unexplained occurs. Religion immidiately says it's god's work while scientists immidiately want to figure out wha happened and why it happened.

 

Well, that's the problem. You know nothing about chrsitianity. God doesn't usually provide miracles, he gives people the tools/opprotunity.

 

I don't know where I heard this, but it makes perfect sense: The story was about a man on top of his house as the surrounding area was flooded. The man prayed to god to help him. Well, a boat passes by, the captain askes the man if he needs help, but the man says "no, god will save me". The man keeps praying. Another boat passes by, same thing happens. The man finds a raft that he can blown up and use. Instead, the man throws it back out into the water. "god will save me" he says a final time. Even though god was trying to save him the entire time.

God doesn't do the whole obvious thing like athiests paint a picture in their head to disprove it. It is usually subtle.

 

Now onto your other thing: Your generalizations are laughable. There are christians who are scientists you know, in fact I know one.

Yes, it is true I believe everything happens for a reason. And It's true, I believe god is the creator.

But again, god gave us brains for a reason. He isn't going to do everything, he made us to be self reliant. It's a reason why we "discover".

And again, don't generalize.



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

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vlad321 on 17 November 2008
Strategyking92 said:
vlad321 said:
Strategyking92 said:

OBJECTION!

 

 

Ha, I know it may seem strange to you, seeing as how religious people believe in something from the past, and are totally ignorant. But I know There are still places in the world that are not civilized, some placed engulfed in isolation, war.

*HIGHLIGHTED* I was arguing the fact that early followers of jesus had no reason for preaching about a false prophet. They obviously witnessed his miracles.

Yes, the muslims went through crap, but they were almost defeated until another saudi tribe intervened because of they thought a divine entity was helping muhammad and his tribe. They would've been destroyed if they hadn't gotten help... As for the Jews, I don't know, they might've just gotten the bad side of the coin flip.

 

And so we can clarify this: The differences between Rome and New guinea are... everything. Rome at least had basic medicine and technology and an understanding of things. It would be like comparing Cave men with Roman people.... So if you didn't know the difference.

*UNDERLINED* the thing about the christian faith is that we actually have documents from the time, of the apostles speaking. yes, I guess they could be exaggerated.... I don't believe so..... but what they (apostles) preached is that jesus was lord. Back then you had tons of religions, choosing the one that was the most likely to get you killed wouldn't have been a wise one, unless you genuinely believed it would deliver you from hell. Not to mention the fact that , since Rome isn't Guinea, I might remind you, the origins of the christian faith had to actually start. And that means jesus had to be special in some way, and to chrsitans, that means he is the divine. Otherwise, he would've just have been a kook back in those days.

 

Roman were more advanced, yes, and that's why the miracles they saw seemed so much more complex and divine. To the tribes, who aren't as advanced, even the simplest showmanship of something they don't understand is a miracle, and since they don't understand much it doesn't take as much to pull off a miracle. This is the reason why we haven't seen a grand showmanship of a miracle in cinturies, we've come to know better than we did millenia ago.

The fundamental difference between riligion and science is the effect of what happens when something unexplained occurs. Religion immidiately says it's god's work while scientists immidiately want to figure out wha happened and why it happened.

 

Well, that's the problem. You know nothing about chrsitianity. God doesn't usually provide miracles, he gives people the tools/opprotunity.

 

I don't know where I heard this, but it makes perfect sense: The story was about a man on top of his house as the surrounding area was flooded. The man prayed to god to help him. Well, a boat passes by, the captain askes the man if he needs help, but the man says "no, god will save me". The man keeps praying. Another boat passes by, same thing happens. The man finds a raft that he can blown up and use. Instead, the man throws it back out into the water. "god will save me" he says a final time. Even though god was trying to save him the entire time.

God doesn't do the whole obvious thing like athiests paint a picture in their head to disprove it. It is usually subtle.

 

Now onto your other thing: Your generalizations are laughable. There are christians who are scientists you know, in fact I know one.

Yes, it is true I believe everything happens for a reason. And It's true, I believe god is the creator.

But again, god gave us brains for a reason. He isn't going to do everything, he made us to be self reliant. It's a reason why we "discover".

And again, don't generalize.

 

Christianity's whole basis rests on miracles, endless uspply of food/water, transmutation, resurrection, splitting seas open, killing off first borns, etc. You also seem to be mistaking my broad generalizations. Yes, I know there are christian scientists, I dare say even over half of them, but how many of them actually think "oh this is god's work" when something in their area of spcialization happens, how many jsut give up and admit it's a miracle instead of working it out and wondering what made it tick? I'mpretty sure the answer is 0 since then they wouldn't be scientists to begin with.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

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gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

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Strategyking92 on 17 November 2008
vlad321 said:

 

Christianity's whole basis rests on miracles, endless uspply of food/water, transmutation, resurrection, splitting seas open, killing off first borns, etc. You also seem to be mistaking my broad generalizations. Yes, I know there are christian scientists, I dare say even over half of them, but how many of them actually think "oh this is god's work" when something in their area of spcialization happens, how many jsut give up and admit it's a miracle instead of working it out and wondering what made it tick? I'mpretty sure the answer is 0 since then they wouldn't be scientists to begin with.

 

 

Partly right. Different people have different beliefs in christianity. Like me, I also believe it is an order of things.

So, for most of that, are we even still debating? seems more like talking



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

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ctk495 on 17 November 2008

Yes/No half of me wants to believe in God the same way as I wanted to believe santa was real and half of me is unsure. I think that most people believe in good since they feel secure by this idea.There are so many things we don't know nor understand so what I do is for now I try not to be so involve in religions beliefs but on the other hand if there is a God then I'm having a backup plan by praying every night that way I will win regarless of what's the truth :). There will be a point were science and religion will blend like one thing that will explain the meaning of life or atleast that's what I believe.

PS: Does anyone notice that this is like the fourth time this "Do you believe in God" thread have been made? Lol they always have a lot of replies.



xlost7 on 17 November 2008

I ignored everyone else's posts and worried about this: I believe in God I believe Jesus came to this Earth died for our sins and will one day come back for me, my family and everyone else.

I ask for God to forgive those who don't know him or of him.

I am a real Christian and believe in all things of Christ. My life isn't promised tomorrow. I pray every night for my family. God knows I could not be hear tomorrow, I pray and my questions are answered from God. If I haven't never prayed for anything of this I wouldn't be here today.

I know there will always be people that knock Christianity or belief of God because there isn't any proof. But one day in your life you will cry out to God for forgiveness. You had bad days in your life and God was there to help you through. You might not realize that but he is there.

Check out the book of Revelations in the bible. Everything that is written in that book is coming to past today. Man is killing Earth that is confirmed.

*I'm not pointing fingers at anyone and don't take my post seriously, its just something that was on my heart to say*

May God be with everyone...



xlost7 on 17 November 2008

@WessleWoggle

I forgive you bro :)

Edit: Stuff like what WessleWoggle just edited from my post, just makes me stronger :)



xlost7 on 17 November 2008

But dude Jesus is God, its just God used a human form which is Jesus.

Jesus is God if you actually read the bible.

Again in clear since: Jesus=human form----->God

So me worshiping Jesus is kist short for saying God because Jesus which is God that was in human form was suffering on Earth like we are.