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Forums - General Discussion - America's March Towards Socialism

ManusJustus said:
senseinobaka said:

So in other words, you are unable to name a single CEO.

I'm going to go out on a limb and submit (Iraq war and World War II).

I mentioned Coca-Cola hiring an assassin to kill union leaders in Colombia.  No, I dont know who is the CEO of Coca Cola or who runs their operations in Columbia, but I do know that whenever a labor leader emerges and wants Coca Cola to pay their workers more they end up dead.

How can you blame democractic America for World War II?  America was attacked by Japan and Truman used a bomb which his generals described to him as just a 'large bomb' (Truman was in the dark as Vice President under Roosevelt), and that bomb saved the lives of many Americans and Japanese in a war that we didnt start.  Concerning the War in Iraq, our elected officials as well as the majority of the population believed that Saddam Hussien was a formidable threat to America and other countries.  A similar circumstance would be you selling your old car which you think is in good condition, but shortly after you sale the care it turns out to be a clunker, does that make you evil or just ignorant?  Ignorance of evil is not evil.

Your logic also fails in regards to means and ability.  A Coca Cola businessman in Columbia may be evil, but his means to do that evil are low.  Leaders of country may be less evil, but they their means of action are very high.  Would Ghengis Khan be any less evil if he was a soldier instead of a king?  Are you suggesting that George Bush is more evil than a convicted murderer and rapist sitting in a jail cell?

I'm assuming this is what you are talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_of_Rodriquez_v._Drummond_Co.

Point being, that the company was found innocent. Also, it would seem the underlying source of violence is an ongoing political battle between right wing and left wing militias. Once again adding evidence to my claim that governemnts and politics are bigger killer than businesses.

Also, Truman can be held accountable. The Japanese attacked a military target, Truman dropped two really big bombs on innocent civilians. And as for the Iraq war. It is true that the initial attack was made based on false intellegence, but the war is still ongoing, people are dying, years after the mistake was discovered. And it's elected officials that are keeping this war alive, the people sure dont want it.

 



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That Guy said:

we're there like horrible factory worker conditions back in the day where you had to work like 12 hour days 6 days a week for like 1 dollar a day?

There was that one book, "The Jungle" that I read when i was a junior about the meat industry.

 

Oh, and on that note, I'm sure there are several occasions where a company knowingly released some kind of dangerous product out to the public and it caused lots of health problems/death for consumers.

I'm not saying that businesses never do anything wrong/evil. And I would never make such a claim. I'm just refuting Manus' claim that businesses are more evil than governments, and the evidence supports me. Governments are as sadastic as things can get in this world.

You cant forget fords famous decsions to endanger their consumers lives. Remember the Pento and 1st gen Explorers, both death traps that ford knew were dangerous but felt that being sued for wrongful death was cheaper than going back and fixing the problem. But can that compare to the halocaust, caused by a democratically elected Hitler? 

 



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the line gets sort of fuzzy at some points, where some governments own certain companies or contract companies to make their weapons of war.

Boeing, or GM, for example, making Bombers and Tanks



senseinobaka said:

I'm just refuting Manus' claim that businesses are more evil than governments, and the evidence supports me.

That is not true.  Just look into coal mining and the treatment of miners here in the United States.  And you think thats bad, imagine how bad is it in less fortunate places of the world.  Thankfully, in America the government regulates industry so much that they are unable to assasinate union leaders or force people to work for practically nothing.  That is not true in other countries, surely you've heard about sweat shops and child labor.

Fundamentally, elected leaders answer to the people who elected them while business owners answer to themselves.  The admistration of the United States of America is a democracy, while the administration of Ted's lumber mill would be a more like a dictatorship.



Sidenote: why is it that we read of horrendous disasters where thousands of people die all around the world, and why is it that natural disasters in the United States rarely enter into the thousands (much less 10s of thousands sometimes?)

Its because a lot of other places have indecent housing and corrupt contractors are using shoddy material to build up flimsy structures. As a result, many thousands of people die unnecessarily because the contractor cheaped out on their work?

Anyways, the bottom line is that human corruption is prevalent in all aspects of organizations, whether it be financial, political, or religious. Someone always gets screwed over from these big three organizations.



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That Guy said:
Sidenote: why is it that we read of horrendous disasters where thousands of people die all around the world, and why is it that natural disasters in the United States rarely enter into the thousands (much less 10s of thousands sometimes?)

Its because a lot of other places have indecent housing and corrupt contractors are using shoddy material to build up flimsy structures. As a result, many thousands of people die unnecessarily because the contractor cheaped out on their work?

Anyways, the bottom line is that human corruption is prevalent in all aspects of organizations, whether it be financial, political, or religious. Someone always gets screwed over from these big three organizations.

 

No.   It has to do with those local areas not being able to afford the good stuff in the first place.  Regardless corrupt contracters could be brought to court even in a pure capitalist society (which the US doesn't have) because they would of violated their contracts.



Kasz216 said:

It has to do with those local areas not being able to afford the good stuff in the first place.

Recently, a brand new school in China collapsed during an earthquake killing numerous students, causing public outrage.  It turns out that the builders and contractors skimped on the actual design of the project and comprimised the integrity of the project, so China punished these people and made an example out of them.

So yes, there are cases where structures are poorly built or, most of the time, just not built to withstand extreme forces, but there are also many examples of builders violating their contracts.  If you are familar with construction in America, our contractors arent that great when unsupervised either, which is why my city requires officials to check the foundations of all buildings.  If the builder messes up on the foundation a lot of times they just cover it up and dont tell the homeowner.



ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

It has to do with those local areas not being able to afford the good stuff in the first place.

Recently, a brand new school in China collapsed during an earthquake killing numerous students, causing public outrage.  It turns out that the builders and contractors skimped on the actual design of the project and comprimised the integrity of the project, so China punished these people and made an example out of them.

So yes, there are cases where structures are poorly built or, most of the time, just not built to withstand extreme forces, but there are also many examples of builders violating their contracts.  If you are familar with construction in America, our contractors arent that great when unsupervised either, which is why my city requires officials to check the foundations of all buildings.  If the builder messes up on the foundation a lot of times they just cover it up and dont tell the homeowner.

Yeah... and those people were punished.

Someone committed a crime and was punished... under the law.  It wouldn't of been any more illegal with more laws.

The only difference here is that those people were punished.

Where as Governments rarely are.

 



@OP - funny, last I recall, it was the churches themselves that decided how to decorate their church. And Christian churches have a focus on Jesus, so they wouldn't need some "right-wing" telling them to do such. Stop taking a swipe at people's faith. It totally invalidated ALL of the rest of your post, which was just some ignorant BS anyway. I'd be careful who you tell your view to, as it can lead a fine path to treason against the United States, and somehow I don't think you'd like to be on THAT side of a firing squad.



bardicverse said:
@OP - funny, last I recall, it was the churches themselves that decided how to decorate their church. And Christian churches have a focus on Jesus, so they wouldn't need some "right-wing" telling them to do such. Stop taking a swipe at people's faith. It totally invalidated ALL of the rest of your post, which was just some ignorant BS anyway. I'd be careful who you tell your view to, as it can lead a fine path to treason against the United States, and somehow I don't think you'd like to be on THAT side of a firing squad.

What are you talking about?