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Forums - General Discussion - THE BEST PRESIDENT TO EVER LEAD THE USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

free market or not throwing people in jail and signing executions without trial is equal or worse than Cleveland.

Either way FDR did not defeat the depression!

His economic plans were disasterous and we got out of the economic depression in spite of his presidancy.

If anything we should thank Hitler for coming out of the depression because he was the scapegoat for which we waged war (along with Japan) which started resurecting our economy and then after the war we plundered Deutschland and all that wonderful Nazi technology came over here and behold! we become an economic power!

Thanks Hitler! too bad we've gone and ruined that wealth and are heading back to how things were before.



"Let justice be done though the heavens fall." - Jim Garrison

"Ask not your horse, if ye should ride into battle" - myself

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What Roosevelt did during the GD was to keep America from going Socialist, Communist, or Fascist. He gave people hope in a time when there seemed to be none. His leadership prevented revolution and violence in the borders.



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

I highly disagree. FDR was a fuckin Communist.



"Let justice be done though the heavens fall." - Jim Garrison

"Ask not your horse, if ye should ride into battle" - myself

Then you know nothing about FDR or Communism and should stop posting until you go read a book on history and a book on economics.

Edit: Sorry for sounding mean, I am writing a little history lesson for you.



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

/rolls eyes

Tell that to my paycheck.



"Let justice be done though the heavens fall." - Jim Garrison

"Ask not your horse, if ye should ride into battle" - myself

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Still writing but tell that to me when you get injured and are living off of Social Security Disability.



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

NM, read this:  http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/4512566.html

 

HISTORY & CULTURE:
How FDR Saved Capitalism

By Seymour Martin Lipset and Gary Marks

During the economic crisis of the 1930s, many expected a socialist revolution. The revolution never came. Why? The man in the White House co-opted the left. By Hoover fellow Seymour Martin Lipset and Gary Marks.

 

 

With the coming of the Great Depression in the 1930s, a sharp increase in protest and anticapitalist sentiment threatened to undermine the existing political system and create new political parties. The findings of diverse opinion polls, as well as the electoral support given to local radical, progressive, and prolabor candidates, indicate that a large minority of Americans were ready to back social democratic proposals. It is significant, then, that even with the growth of class consciousness in America, no national third party was able to break the duopoly of the Democratic and Republican Parties. Radicals who operated within the two-party system were often able to achieve local victories, but these accomplishments never culminated in the creation of a sustainable third party or left-wing ideological movement. The thirties dramatically demonstrated not only the power of America’s coalitional two-party system to dissuade a national third party but also the deeply antistatist, individualistic character of its electorate.


Illustration by Taylor Jones for the Hoover Digest.

The politics of the 1930s furnishes us with an excellent example of the way the American presidential system has worked to frustrate third-party efforts. Franklin D. Roosevelt played a unique role in keeping the country politically stable during its greatest economic crisis. But he did so in classic or traditional fashion. He spent considerable time wooing those on the left. And though many leftists recognized that Roosevelt was trying to save capitalism, they could not afford to risk his defeat by supporting a national third party.

The Nation Shifts to the Left

Powerful leftist third-party movements emerged in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and New York. In other states, radicals successfully advanced alternative political movements by pursuing a strategy of running in major-party primaries. In California, Upton Sinclair, who had run as a Socialist for governor in 1932 and received 50,000 votes, organized the End Poverty in California (EPIC) movement, which won a majority in the 1934 Democratic gubernatorial primaries. He was defeated after a bitter business-financed campaign in the general election, though he secured more than 900,000 votes (37 percent of the total). By 1938, former EPIC leaders had captured the California governorship and a U.S. Senate seat.

In Washington and Oregon, the Commonwealth Federations, patterning themselves after the social democratic Cooperative Commonwealth Federation of Canada, won a number of state and congressional posts and controlled the state Democratic Parties for several years. In North Dakota, the revived radical Nonpartisan League, still operating within the Republican Party, won the governorship, a U.S. Senate seat, and both congressional seats in 1932 and continued to win other elections throughout the decade. In Minnesota, the Farmer-Labor Party captured the governorship and five house seats. Wisconsin, too, witnessed an electorally powerful Progressive Party backed by the Socialists.

The Socialist and Communist Parties grew substantially as well. In 1932 the Socialist Party had 15,000 members. Its electoral support, however, was much broader, as indicated by the 1932 presidential election, in which Norman Thomas received close to 900,000 votes, up from 267,000 in 1928. The Socialist Party’s membership had increased to 25,000 by 1935. As a result of leftist enthusiasm for President Roosevelt, however, its presidential vote declined to 188,000 in 1936, fewer votes than the party had attained in any presidential contest since 1900. The Communist Party, on the other hand, backed President Roosevelt from 1936 on, and its membership grew steadily, numbering between 80,000 and 90,000 at its high point in 1939. Communists played a role in “left center,” winning electoral coalitions in several states, notably California, Minnesota, New York, and Washington.

 

 

A 1933 booklet promotting Upton Sinclair’s run for California governor.

National surveys suggest that the leftward shift in public opinion during the 1930s was even more extensive than indicated by third-party voting or membership in radical organizations. Although large leftist third parties existed only in Minnesota, New York, and Wisconsin, three Gallup polls taken between December 1936 and January 1938 found that between 14 and 16 percent of those polled said they would not merely vote for but “would join” a Farmer-Labor Party if one was organized. Of those interviewees expressing an opinion in 1937, 21 percent voiced a readiness to join a new party.

Co-opting the Left

If the Great Depression, with all its attendant effects, shifted national attitudes to the left, why was it that no strong radical movement committed itself to a third party during these years? A key part of the explanation was that President Roosevelt succeeded in including left-wing protest in his New Deal coalition. He used two basic tactics. First, he responded to the various outgroups by incorporating in his own rhetoric many of their demands. Second, he absorbed the leaders of these groups into his following. These reflected conscious efforts to undercut left-wing radicals and thus to preserve capitalism.

Franklin Roosevelt demonstrated his skill at co-opting the rhetoric and demands of opposition groups the year before his 1936 reelection, when the demagogic Senator Huey Long of Louisiana threatened to run on a third-party Share-Our-Wealth ticket. This possibility was particularly threatening because a “secret” public opinion poll conducted in 1935 for the Democratic National Committee suggested that Long might get three to four million votes, throwing several states over to the Republicans if he ran at the head of a third party. At the same time several progressive senators were flirting with a potential third ticket; Roosevelt felt that as a result the 1936 election might witness a Progressive Republican ticket, headed by Robert La Follette, alongside a Share-Our-Wealth ticket.

To prevent this, Roosevelt shifted to the left in rhetoric and, to some extent, in policy, consciously seeking to steal the thunder of his populist critics. In discussions concerning radical and populist anticapitalist protests, the president stated that to save capitalism from itself and its opponents he might have to “equalize the distribution of wealth,” which could necessitate “throw[ing] to the wolves the forty-six men who are reported to have incomes in excess of one million dollars a year.” Roosevelt also responded to the share-the-wealth outcry by advancing tax reform proposals to raise income and dividend taxes, to enact a sharply graduated inheritance tax, and to use tax policy to discriminate against large corporations. Huey Long reacted by charging that the president was stealing his program.

President Roosevelt also became more overtly supportive of trade unions, although he did not endorse the most important piece of proposed labor legislation, Senator Robert Wagner’s labor relations bill, until shortly before its passage.

Raymond Moley, an organizer of Roosevelt’s “brain trust,” emphasized that the president, through these and other policies and statements, sought to identify himself with the objectives of the unemployed, minorities, and farmers, as well as “the growing membership of the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO), Norman Thomas’ vanishing army of orthodox Socialists, Republican progressives and Farmer-Laborites, Share-the-Wealthers, single-taxers, Sinclairites, Townsendites [and] Coughlinites.”

Destroying the Third-Party Threat

Beyond adopting leftist rhetoric and offering progressive policies in exchange for support from radical and economically depressed constituencies, President Roosevelt also sought to recruit the actual leaders of protest groups by convincing them that they were part of his coalition. He gave those who held state and local public office access to federal patronage, particularly in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and New York, where strong statewide third parties existed. Electorally powerful non-Democrats whom Roosevelt supported included Minnesota governor Floyd Olson (Farmer-Labor Party), New York City mayor Fiorello La Guardia (American Labor Party), and Nebraska senator George Norris (Independent), as well as Wisconsin governor Philip La Follette and his brother, Senator Robert La Follette Jr. (both Progressive Party).



This strategy had an impact. In 1937, Philip La Follette’s executive secretary told Daniel Hoan, the Socialist mayor of Milwaukee, that a national third party never would be launched while Roosevelt was “in the saddle,” because Roosevelt had “put so many outstanding liberals on his payroll [that] . . . any third party movement would lack sufficient leadership.” The president told leftist leaders that he was on their side and that his ultimate goal was to transform the Democratic Party into an ideologically coherent progressive party in which they could hope to play a leading role. A few times he even implied that, to secure ideological realignment, he personally might go the third-party route, following in the footsteps of his cousin Theodore Roosevelt.

Franklin Roosevelt ran his 1936 presidential campaign as a progressive coalition, not as a Democratic Party activity. Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. has described Roosevelt’s tactics as follows:

As the campaign developed, the Democratic party seemed more and more submerged in the New Deal coalition. The most active campaigners in addition to Roosevelt—[Harold] Ickes, [Henry] Wallace, Hugh Johnson—were men identified with the New Deal, not with the professional Democratic organization. Loyalty to the cause superseded loyalty to the party as the criterion for administration support. . . . It was evident that the basis of the campaign would be the mobilization beyond the Democratic party of all the elements in the New Deal coalition—liberals, labor, farmers, women, minorities.

Roosevelt was reelected by an overwhelming majority in 1936. Yet his second term proved much less innovative than his first. This was due, in part, to several Supreme Court decisions during 1936 striking down various New Deal laws as unconstitutional and the president’s subsequent inability to mobilize popular protest against the Court. Reacting to a perceived shift in the public mood to the right, particularly from 1938 on, Roosevelt substantially reduced his reform efforts. The change, however, did not lead to a loss of leftist support. The Communist Party, following its Soviet-dictated Popular Front policy, actively opposed efforts in a number of states to create independent radical anti-Roosevelt political campaigns. Sounding like a moderate liberal group, it increased its membership, formed large front groups, and generally expanded its influence in the labor movement.



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

Commando said:
I highly disagree. FDR was a fuckin Communist.

 

You're right, creating jobs is communist. So is building infrastructure and saving the country from a complete collapse. Oh, and helping our allies in a World War is as close to communism as you can get. Let them save themselves right?



 

Currently playing: Civ 6

Regardless of what you want to say, FDR did institute communistic/socialistic programs thanks to the New Deal and Second New Deal. Social Security is, and was, a major erosion of peoples' rights in favor of government control over our income.

And however you want to argue about Social Security, know this: As a worker under Social Security, you will not make back whatever you put into it after adding inflation. Interest in SS accrues at 2% per year.

That's in total opposition to any other retirement system available - Even a bank offers higher interest rates via Money Markets and CD's than what Social Security does. If you are a government worker, their pension plan nets you above 10% per year in returns - well above inflation.

Even if you can argue for a voluntary retirement savings, there's still absolutely no reason why the Government has to run it, and run it so poorly.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

steven787 said:
That's my point, if you weigh all the good and bad, then Lincoln is far from the worst. You must also include the impact the president had on the country after his reign. Lincoln had far more positive impact on the progression towards voluntary national unity, minority equality, and industrialization than he probably thought he would have.

Cleveland had much more negative long term impact. By using the military to enforce the judicial injunction, he caused a back lash that would lead to more government involvement in business and industry; even though that is not what he intended. If he had not done that, industrialist would have been more eager to pay fair wages and provide appropriate benefits that the market (the labor market) demanded. This would have been better for everyone than having government first restricting the power of the worker, then backtracking and overcompensating.

It's not a free market if the government is shooting and arresting demonstrators and strikers. That would be corporatism and leading to fascism; of course, it's not Fascism when we do it.

A free market system would demand that the government not get involved, and the business owners would then increase wages to get the workers they needed.

 

No, it is a free market economy when government enforces the protection of private property. The strikers were dismantling trains and violating the private property rights of the Pullman company. I am uncertain as to why you continually refer to Cleveland as a corporatist. He was the furthest thing from a corporatist. He was friend of neither labor nor business. He refused to intervene and create public work projects in a vain attempt to end the recession. He was not a corporatist but a proponent of laissez-faire economic policies.

The decrease in wages was to be expected. There was a recession and demand for Pullman's train cars decreased precipitously. I do not have the "numbers," so I cannot ascertain if the reduction in wages was concurrent with the recession, but it does make sense in theory that wages decrease as the demand for labor decreases.