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Forums - General Discussion - THE BEST PRESIDENT TO EVER LEAD THE USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kasz216 on 13 November 2008
Final-Fan said:

I think the world is too complicated to work out a formula on what exactly it would take to make someone's bad actions completely poison my opinion of him no matter what good he did. I'll take it on a case by case basis thank you very much, and the internment is extremely troubling to me and lowers my opinion of FDR quite a bit but does not completely poison it. (But I do hate Andrew Jackson.)  Censorship troubles me also but I am inclined to judge FDR there against other presidents during major wars which makes him look a lot better.

I, in turn, would like to know why exactly the "wrongful" in "wrongful imprisonment" makes the imprisonment equivalent to slavery when rightful imprisonment is not. Or is it "okay" slavery because they committed a crime?

In any case, I think it was very poor word choice when you supported your argument that FDR is racist by saying that he "practically enslaved" Japanese Americans, when you mean that he wrongfully imprisoned them and you believe all wrongful imprisonment is practically slavery.

What's the real difference between imprisonment in slavery?

Is not the greatest loss in both the loss of freedom?

Slavery is not much worse then knowing false imprisonment in my book.

I mean... look at community service.  What is community service but "slavery" for committing a crime?

Or win soemone is sentenced to "Hard time"  Aka Penal Labor.  (Though i don't think the US does that on an involentary basis anymore... when they did i believe it was just the south anyway.)



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Final-Fan on 13 November 2008

So your position is that incarceration is like slavery, but we're justified in enslaving criminals.



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elprincipe on 14 November 2008

George Washington. Didn't belong to a political party, wisely advised us not to form political parties, gave up power when he could easily have seized it and been king, not to mention he played the biggest part in the Revolutionary War victory. Plus, he was a Virginian, always a big plus!



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elprincipe on 14 November 2008
damkira said:

FDR! He defeated the depression and the nazis!

 

 

A common misconception (as evidenced by this thread) is that FDR's "New Deal" policies brought the country out of the Great Depression.  In fact, they made the depression much worse than it was when FDR's term in office began, and it was only the manufacturing boom demanded by World War II that ended the depression.  Unemployment was much higher just before WWII than when FDR took office, for example.



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Final-Fan on 14 November 2008
elprincipe said:
damkira said:
FDR! He defeated the depression and the nazis!
A common misconception (as evidenced by this thread) is that FDR's "New Deal" policies brought the country out of the Great Depression.  In fact, they made the depression much worse than it was when FDR's term in office began, and it was only the manufacturing boom demanded by World War II that ended the depression.  Unemployment was much higher just before WWII than when FDR took office, for example.


Sorry, you fail. 
Eyeballing it:  1932, 22%; 1939, 12-17%; 1941, 7-10%.  That's ignoring the "second depression". 

I would debate on the benefits/drawbacks of the New Deal and whether it worsened the Depression, but at the risk of hypocrisy I ask that you not derail the thread like that. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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elprincipe on 14 November 2008
Final-Fan said:
elprincipe said:
damkira said:
FDR! He defeated the depression and the nazis!
A common misconception (as evidenced by this thread) is that FDR's "New Deal" policies brought the country out of the Great Depression.  In fact, they made the depression much worse than it was when FDR's term in office began, and it was only the manufacturing boom demanded by World War II that ended the depression.  Unemployment was much higher just before WWII than when FDR took office, for example.


Sorry, you fail. 
Eyeballing it:  1932, 22%; 1939, 12-17%; 1941, 7-10%.  That's ignoring the "second depression". 

I would debate on the benefits/drawbacks of the New Deal and whether it worsened the Depression, but at the risk of hypocrisy I ask that you not derail the thread like that. 

 

Upon further research you're right, I misremembered the stats.  Unemployment was down slightly at the end of the '30s compared to when FDR took office, from insanely high to slightly less insanely high.  The New Deal was a dismal failure, in other words, as it completely failed to produce an economic recovery, thus proving for all time that government cannot produce economic prosperity.  But yes, let's not derail the thread from other fascinating discussions.



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Commando on 14 November 2008
elprincipe said:
damkira said:

FDR! He defeated the depression and the nazis!

 

 

A common misconception (as evidenced by this thread) is that FDR's "New Deal" policies brought the country out of the Great Depression.  In fact, they made the depression much worse than it was when FDR's term in office began, and it was only the manufacturing boom demanded by World War II that ended the depression.  Unemployment was much higher just before WWII than when FDR took office, for example.

Thank you very much!

 



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"Ask not your horse, if ye should ride into battle" - myself

ManusJustus on 14 November 2008
elprincipe said: 

The New Deal was a dismal failure, in other words, as it completely failed to produce an economic recovery, thus proving for all time that government cannot produce economic prosperity.

Just look at Germany and the Soviet Union at the same time.  While the United States and Britian were bogged down by the Great Depression, Germany and Russia nationalized their economies and turned themselves from economic 'poor houses' to superpowers.

The fact that countries like Germany and Russia prospered during the Great Depression is ample evidence to prove your statement inaccurate.



Kasz216 on 14 November 2008
Final-Fan said:
So your position is that incarceration is like slavery, but we're justified in enslaving criminals.

Pretty much.  I mean being in jail is supposed to "Pay off your debt to society."  But all being in jail does is cost the society money.

Though personally i'd give the prisoner the choice, the "slavery" option being less of a sentence then the regular prison time since the slaver option would be somewhat worse.

 



Final-Fan on 14 November 2008

I'm sorry, thread, I can't resist taking this shot:

Numbers of Banks and Bank Suspensions
Year Number as of 12-31 Suspensions
1929 24,633 659
1930 22,773 1350
1931 19,970 2293
1932 18,397 1453
1933 15,015 4000
1934 16,096 57

Data are from Table V 20-30 in Historical Statistics of The United States: Colonial Times to 1970, 1975, p. 912.

Clearly New Deal reforms had no effect on the banking crisis whatsoever. 

I think that any neutral party, upon comparing your quote "Unemployment was down slightly at the end of the '30s compared to when FDR took office, from insanely high to slightly less insanely high." to my graph [edit:  the previous one, the one that was actually about unemployment ... just in case you were unclear], will perceive the reality of the situation.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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