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Forums - General Discussion - One reason I hate living in the south.

makingmusic476 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
konnichiwa said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Well, to be honest, he is more right then wrong. When the colonies created the US, and became states, they did so with an expectation of what there state rights would be. Those rules radically changed, and changed in a way where it negatively impacted the southern states. It got to a point where they said "thanks, but no thanks. Good luck with that US thing, we are going to go another way". Left the group, and started there own country. The US said "sorry, but we need you, so no" and invaded them.

Think of it like if you joined a club where you had to pay $1000 in dues, and after a few years the club moves in a direction you don't like. You then resign from the club, but the owner (who likes your $1000) beats the shit out of you, and says you can't leave, and must pay the grand each year.

That sums up the war. It was a state rights thing, and had nothing to do with slavery (if anyone thinks it did).

Well I always thought that was the main reason or better said was the one of biggest reasons.  I know a lot of the Civil war (the most famous persons/generals, the fights that happened like Bull Run) but never really what it caused it.

Ugh sucks though, the only family that ever went to USA of me had to fight in the civil war (or that is what they told us when we asked it) and died in one of the fights.  Ugh I always saw him as some kind of hero.

And lol a lot of Americans who live here have this flag on their car/in their house:

 I always thought they did that because they are racist =p...Wups..

 

Well, a lot of people today think of race when they think of the civil war (both black and white). So I would not rule out racism when you see that flag (I would not automatically think it either).

I agree with States Rights, but I would never fly that flag. It pisses off to many people.

Oh, and Slavery was legal even after the war was over. It was not abolished until the 14th amendment was ratified on July 9, 1868. The Civil War ended April 9, 1865.

If you want to know more about why the war started, Wikipedia has some good info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

As you can see in that article, slavery was a focal point that stimulated the argument, but it was not the underlying issue. The underlying issue what the states felt they had the right to say if slavery would be legal, not the federal government (like it still is today with murder, that's a state crime, not a federal one). Ironically, Lincoln never planed to outlaw slavery in states that already had it, he only wanted to outlaw it from any territory that wanted to become a new state.

But after the south was defeated, the north put there people into the political offices of the southern states, and it allowed the 14th amendment to pass. So the war ended slavery faster then if it had not happened.

Oh, also slavery and racism were two different things back then. In the south, before the war, there were 150,000 free black men. Of the free black men in New Orleans (the only location where they kept statistics on black slave owners), 90% of the free black men owned slaves. About 1% of white men in the south owned slaves. It's very hard to try and put what slavery meant to the people of that time into our value system.

A good example, would be if one day we let 15 year old's hold public office, and live free. If we did, in 200 years we would be ashamed at how we treat 15-18 year old's today. You can't buy property, live on your own, vote, and so on. We don't think of this as degrading to our youth, it's just the way it is. It was kind of the same mindset back then.

I am torn, as I feel slavery should have been a states rights issue, but I am also very happy about the 14th amendment (and the civil rights movement if the 1960's). In a perfect world, each state would have outlawed slavery on there own, and over 700,000 Americans wouldn't of had to die.

Really, it was about 5% of Southern white men that owned slaves.

As for the Wikipedia article, it puts puts far too much emphasis on slaveryas a cause of the war (as most American souces do).  Slavery was one of many issues in the war, and animosity between the North and South due to other issues (taxes, tarrifs, etc.) often manifested itself through the North/South's efforts to expand the number of Free/Slave states, thus expanding each's political power in Congress.

The real issues of the Civil War (though a more fitting name would be the War Between the States, or the War of Northern Aggression) involved tariffs, the wider economy, and states rights (like the right of nullifaction, for example when South Carolina attempted to nullify the tariff of 1828, aka the Tariff of Abominations - and after the war started, the right of Secession). 

In the early 1800s, the South was really getting screwed by the North as far as the economy was concerned.  Southern farmers were the source of a vast majority of Federal income, yet the far more populous North always decided where the money went.  Things were only made worse through Northern efforts to increase import tariffs, in an attempt to make Southern farmers buy their goods from Northern manufacturers, rather than importing cheaper goods from Europe, where the Industrial Revolution had grown strong.

Tension over tariffs first came to a head through the Tariff of 1828, a tariff that raised taxes on imports to unprecedented levels, and was thus labeled the "Tariff of Abominations".  The South, particularly South Carolina, got pissed, and there were even talks of nullifying the tariff, or declaring the tariff to be null & void.  However, they didn't end up doing this, remaining optimistic that the tariff would be lowered by 1832.  The tariff of 1832, however, didn't lower the tariff near enough, so SC, under the direction of John C. Calhoun, decided to go ahead and nullify the Tariff.  They even called up the state militia to keep the Feds from collecting dues from the Tariff.  Of course, Jackson brought up the army, and SC backed down.

They did not back down in 1860, however.

When the Morill tariff (the highest tariff since the infamous Tariff of Abominations) was going through Congress in 1860, and Lincoln vowed to sign said tariff into law should he become President, the Deep South states of South Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, and Texas said, "Enough!  We're out of here."  The Morrill Tariff raised import taxes to around 48% by 1868. While, not as high as the Tariff of Abomination's ~60%, it was MUCH higher than the ~20% that had become the norm during the 1850s.

It was only after Lincoln send 75,000 militia to "take back" these states that the upper South States seceded.  Virginia, North Carolina, etc. weren't to fond of what the North was doing at first, but it wasn't enough to make them leave the Union.  Once they saw that the federal government under Lincoln wouldn't even let States SECEDE, they were like, "Oh hell no!"  The rights of the State had been threatened enough.

And that's a rough summation of the beginning of the War Between the States.  Of course, American history books will always make their best efforts to demonize the South and glorify ol' Abe.  As they say, the winners write the history books.  I hear we get more of a fair shake in Europe, though.

Edit: OMG, the wikipedia article on the Tariff of Abominations is so biased.  This line in particular made me LOL: 

"When the Jackson administration failed to address its concerns, the most radical faction in South Carolina began to advocate that the state itself declare the tariff null and void within South Carolina." 

I wouldn't consider John C. Calhoun and those that elected him to be some fringe group of radicals.  And the article completely ignores SC calling up the militia.  It completely downplays the gravity of the situation.

 

Please see my above posts.  Like it or not, slavery was the main point of contention between the states.  There were other issues, but slavery was front and center.  Its seems like its the south that is trying to re-write history to make it look like they were on the "right" side.

 



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Slavery was not the main issue during the civil war. It was only through Slavery, or rather, the fight to gain political power through increasing the number of Slave/Free states, that animosity between the North and South due to other factors (like those I outlined above) manifested itself.

Honestly, the entire notion that a man would send his sons to die just so he could keep his slaves is ludicrous. Or hell, why would 95% of the population fight so valiantly just so that the other 5% could keep people in bondage. Why would the majority of poor formers fight the the rights of a few rich plantations owners, especially when these poor farmers were often in direct competition with slaves for work?

Also, Lincoln said multiple times in his debates with Stephen Douglas that though he was morally opposed to slavery (yet still held the belief that whites were superior to blacks, and only wanted them freed so they could be sent back to Africa, because he felt that whites and blacks should not live together, but that's another issue for another day), he felt it would be wrong to end slavery, and he had no intention of doing so should he have been elected.

Hell, in his inaugural address he stated he would willingly sign the (original) 13th amendment, which would've forbid any future amendments to the Constitution involving the ending of Slavery, should the Southern States have chosen to come back to the Union. Our own constitution would've essentially enshrined the act of slavery! The Southern States would have nothing of it, though.

Lincoln truly had no intentions of ending slavery. Even with the war, Lincoln states multiple times that his goal was only to save the Union. Or rather, ensure that Federal Government coffers were lined with Southern dollars. It had nothing to do with freeing the slaves.



whatever said:
TheRealMafoo said:
whatever said:

That rule change was slavery, so I don't see how you can say slavery had nothing to do with it.

 

 

The rule change was Lincoln wanted to make Slavery a federal issue (like Obama wants to do with health care today).

The same way I feel about heath care today. I would love everyone in this country to have it... I think it's 100% wrong for the federal government to provide it.


The states with slavery were safe, they just hated yet another state's right being removed. In fact the war started before Lincoln ever took office. You also have to take what we think about the reasons for the war with a grain of salt. Ever notice throughout history, the good guys always win the wars? That's because the winners get to write the history. Slavery was a great thing to pin this war on, so the PR machines of the day did. Most people, north and south, wanted slavery abolished. It was a good way to say the government is coming in to help. kind of like when your Government takes 850 billion out of your pocket to help out the people who pay them, and then say it's good for the people ;)

I don't know where you learned your history.  Slavery was a point of contention between the Northern and Southern states for a long time, since the founding of the US.  The issue came to a head when new states were being added to the US and with every new state, the issue of whether or not that would be a slave state caused tensions between the slave and non-slave states.

So yes, states rights was an issue.  But the only state's right that caused that much tension was the right to have slaves.

And the war didn't officially start until the bombing of Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861, about 1 month after Lincoln took office.

 

Yes it was, but mainly as a means to further each side's political power, as I've stated above.

And there were far more issues at stake than just slavery when it came to the rights of the State.  Like I mentioned above, things like nullifaction played a heavy hand.  The right of Secession played it's part as well, as the Upper South states would've never left the Union had Lincoln not tried to prevent the Deep South states from Seceding.

Also, the actual war started as a direct result of Lincoln refusing to abandon Union forts littered throughout the South.  The troops at Fort Sumter were foreign forces on our soil.  When Lincoln sent ships to resupply Fort Sumter, it was an act of war, and thus we fired.

I'm not trying to rewrite history.  Lincoln supporters have been doing that ever since 1865, in an attempt to justify the costliest war in American history.



Kasz216 said:
MontanaHatchet said:
Moongoddess256 said:
Oh I know. I kinda wish this country did divide then because even now we are completely divided politically. And especially on social issues. If we had split then the south could have things their way and the north could have things our way. Doesn't sound so bad to me.

Okay, but that makes no sense and wouldn't work whatsoever. If we divided the north and the south, we'd simply have northern states that are conservative (Indiana, Ohio, Montana, the Dakotas, Idaho, I could go on), and southern states that are liberal (New Mexico, California). And what the hell is the point of a country where everyone thinks exactly the same way? I'm not going to go too deep into it since I don't think you're actually serous.

 

Well I think California would be part of the Union.  If i remember correctly they were Pro Union in the Civil War.

I once read a book like that.  Was pretty good.  Was an alternate history where the South one the Civil War.  Lincoln was all broken... and they covered how everything went.

Was part of a series... I think it all goes all the way to and past World War 2.  Always wanted to read more of those books but could never remember the name of it.

 

The same with this book about a Quaker man, who during WW2 is forced to watch his daughter get raped by a prison commandant and strikes out at the guy in anger and then has to reconcile whether or not his faith can really work or if it's a religion of convience.

I can't ever find the names of those books.

 

I think I know the books you speak of.  They involve some guy going back in time to 1865 and giving AK-47s to the South, allowing them to win the war, right?

I never liked them, tbh.  They theroized that slavery would've persisted in the South until...well, until the end of the series, which as you stated went all the way up until around WWII.

The idea that slavery would've persisted much longer in the South had the Confederacy won the war, or had there been no war at all, makes little sense.  Every nation except for the US managed to bring an end to slavery through peaceful means, and the same would've inevitably happened here. Slavery was already on it's way out by the mid-1800s, going through only a short resurgance due to the invention of the cotten gin.

Hell, the Virginia House of Representatives had been holding abolitionist talkes throughout the 1850s.

Slavery would've come to an end in the US no later than 1900, and probably much earlier, had there been no war.  Same goes for the South had they managed to successfully secede.



Why should a state have the right to nullify federal taxes?

Seriously, if you want to have slaves and no taxes, you don't secede. You go find an island somewhere.

And when you secede and somebody tries to stop you, it's a civil war.



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The Ghost of RubangB said:
Why should a state have the right to nullify federal taxes?

Seriously, if you want to have slaves and no taxes, you don't secede. You go find an island somewhere.

And when you secede and somebody tries to stop you, it's a civil war.

 

Nullifaction generally dealt with states having the right to nullify acts which they deemed to be unconstitutional.

To quote Thomas Jefferson on the matter:

(from the Kentucky Resolution of 1798)

Resolved, that the several States composing, the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that, by a compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States, and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes — delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving, each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: that to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral part, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that, as in all other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress.

The idea at the time was that the federal government couldn't be trusted to regulate itself (and this is only proven today, with how the President gets away with so much BS, despite the Congress having complete control of the budget).  States, at the time, were seen by many to be the "fourth branch" of the US government, and had to nullify any acts of the US government they themselves deemed unconsitutional, should the federal government not do so itself.

Of course, I'm not saying that the Tariffs were unconstituional, nor that the States should have had the right to nullify them.  I'm just pointing out that tariffs were a primary cause of political climate in the 1860s.

And the tariffs were complete BS.  The South had a right to be pissed, and I guess nullifaction was their best bet prior to just getting the hell out. 

It's not simply an issue of taxes versus no taxes like you're trying to make it seem.  The Southern economy was continually being exploited by the North, and then it was finally destroyed via the war (entire cities were burned, often with the townspeople therein recieving no prior warning whatsoever), and via the subsequent Reconstruction.

 



makingmusic476 said:
Kasz216 said:
MontanaHatchet said:
Moongoddess256 said:
Oh I know. I kinda wish this country did divide then because even now we are completely divided politically. And especially on social issues. If we had split then the south could have things their way and the north could have things our way. Doesn't sound so bad to me.

Okay, but that makes no sense and wouldn't work whatsoever. If we divided the north and the south, we'd simply have northern states that are conservative (Indiana, Ohio, Montana, the Dakotas, Idaho, I could go on), and southern states that are liberal (New Mexico, California). And what the hell is the point of a country where everyone thinks exactly the same way? I'm not going to go too deep into it since I don't think you're actually serous.

 

Well I think California would be part of the Union.  If i remember correctly they were Pro Union in the Civil War.

I once read a book like that.  Was pretty good.  Was an alternate history where the South one the Civil War.  Lincoln was all broken... and they covered how everything went.

Was part of a series... I think it all goes all the way to and past World War 2.  Always wanted to read more of those books but could never remember the name of it.

 

The same with this book about a Quaker man, who during WW2 is forced to watch his daughter get raped by a prison commandant and strikes out at the guy in anger and then has to reconcile whether or not his faith can really work or if it's a religion of convience.

I can't ever find the names of those books.

 

I think I know the books you speak of.  They involve some guy going back in time to 1865 and giving AK-47s to the South, allowing them to win the war, right?

I never liked them, tbh.  They theroized that slavery would've persisted in the South until...well, until the end of the series, which as you stated went all the way up until around WWII.

The idea that slavery would've persisted much longer in the South had the Confederacy won the war, or had there been no war at all, makes little sense.  Every nation except for the US managed to bring an end to slavery through peaceful means, and the same would've inevitably happened here. Slavery was already on it's way out by the mid-1800s, going through only a short resurgance due to the invention of the cotten gin.

Hell, the Virginia House of Representatives had been holding abolitionist talkes throughout the 1850s.

Slavery would've come to an end in the US no later than 1900, and probably much earlier, had there been no war.  Same goes for the South had they managed to successfully secede.

Nah, Rubang found me the right one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline-191

 



makingmusic476 said:

Also, the actual war started as a direct result of Lincoln refusing to abandon Union forts littered throughout the South.  The troops at Fort Sumter were foreign forces on our soil.

 

I agree with everything you have said, but that line made me LOL. unless you were born sometime in the 1860's, it's hard to make that statement ;)

Oh, and I am sure there are some good books on this subject, on the real reason the south left the Union. I wonder how many book stores in the north have that book?



Borders or B&N are the only bookstores I like.

I like Borders better though. It has more manga, a better atmosphere, and a free copy of the Onion by the door.



=p Wow this is getting very interesting.