Sadly, I don't even know how to change the topic =_=

@Onyxmeth: As i said, a little tired. Let's see...

The 30 years is just commonly seen as an age to reach maturity, i wasn't making it up. If you ask middle-aged people (or even younger) that when did they grew up, they propably are going to say, age of 30. Where does this come from, i don't know - i'm still 29, but propably it's when people (later on) saw themselves as adults.

By sophistication, i was meaning the input itself. Not controller or anything like that. If you make a user input sophisticated enough, the user won't even notice the sophistication, but it plays like a thought.
The sophistication comes from the input working "as expected" in various situations, working in the background so that the possible complexity isn't visible to user. A little similar fashion than for example ABS or TCS in cars today, at its best, the only way you know the system is working, is a light on the dashboard.

Let's put it this way; fast and graphically detailed. Playing a videogame isn't different from driving in this sense, what counts is the amount of data being processed by your brain. I could search some studies when i have the time.

Maybe fun was a bad word, couldn't think a better one at the moment. The general trend in games is to focus on advancing and being "serious". Fun, is of course a subjective perceived value. The idea was to use "fun", as something that everyone can think of being fun. Basically this is about the same as pick up and play.

I should have said fast paced advancing reflex test. Basically any random shooter would be a prime example of this, since the idea in their gameplay is "dodge and shoot, shoot and dodge" and the games usually are too long to be remembered. The reason for shooters being popular among teenagers is for the games being mostly fast paced reflex tests.
Wii Sports isn't that much of a reflex test, it actually is a timing based game. Wii Fit basically has only Heading, that requires reflexes. Shooting Range in Wii Play would work as an example, but you don't really advance in it, and you remember the targets after a couple of times of playing it.

Yes, designed as being played in short bursts. And i think i never said that games outside Wii Series wouldn't qualify.

Focus on gameplay basically means that the gameplay itself is the fun part. Looking at the games today, they focus at most parts in advancing or "getting something done", instead of "being fun to play". The fun needs to be while you advance, not when you advance.

Yeah, i know it was pretty close to how arcade games work, after all they must get as much people as possible to play them as much as possible. Space Invaders would be one good example about the game i'm after, but Crazy Taxi wouldn't qualify.

You cant change the title but you sure can change the thread is heading. If we could change the course of the topic we can make a thread that evryone understands. Even I cant understand the thread no more. What playing BINGO got to do with Mature videogames anyway?

Anyway, what are the mature games in your country that is Mature that doent deserve the rating? I think your country is the most strict I've seen so far, BTW is Manhunt 2 still banned even with the censored version?

I want to continue this with you, but I can't help but feel your theory on this is only half thought out at the moment. Get that sleep, come back and we'll butt heads over this(or maybe even agree). I know you've got a point but it's coming through really jumbled and messy at the moment.

Most of my previous response still stands for this reply. The only other thing i'll add is that I don't agree with 30 being an age that adults mature. I personally feel we continue to mature throughout our lives and there is no cutoff date for when that ends. If someone sees themselves as an adult earlier than 30, then your position wouldn't stand. I personally consider myself one and I'm only 24. However, I know i've got a lot longer than the age of 30 to mature. Most adults are in the middle of parent by 30, and I'm positive most would admit they matured more as their children grew older into teenagers and beyond.

Also give me more of an explanation on why Space Invaders is but Crazy Taxi is not qualfied.

Anyway, since we're here, I think ninty should cater more to the teens than the adults and kids. Most teens I've seen on youtube are playing Xbox 360 and PS3 because they play the games they like like Gears of War, Halo 3, MGS4, call of duty 4 and Tom Clancy's Rainbow six games. I myself dont care for the "so called" violent and gore games, Im more into Legend of Zelda and SSBB though I like NMH but not that not much since I get paseed those rebel days of my youth Im already an adult...

No wonder the Wii is popular, it caters more to kids and adults more than 360 and PS3 did but I think ninty shouldnt forget that there are still teens out there that bought the Wii, and they shouldnt forgot to cater those audience. And the third parties too, the reason why counter Strike was popular because not only it caters to adults and kids it caters too on teens with its violent gun to gun action and blood.

Anyway, the Conduit will be finally out so as Madworld but those games arent enough to satisfy the teen gamers that own the Wii.

Sorry for the essay but is this what you meant mibuokami?

For its days, Space Invader was consider a graphical treat, it certainly requires twitch reflect and is one of the granddaddy of all 'dodge and shoot, shoot and dodge' game (in fact that is the entire gameplay!). The amount of time you spend on space invader depends invariably on how good your reflex is.

How does a game of Space Invaders end? By either finishing the entire game (is that possible?) or you dying. Thats either one damn long sitting or you dying and going away.

How is that different from the campaign mode of any First Person Shooter? You play and either die and give up you get to the next checkpoint / save. If anything the artificial checkpoint most game create nowadays ensure shorter gaming duration because they create artificial breaks.

The only point you have is simplicity, the nature of a game being 'pick up and play' which you consider mature. But again this is a matter of perspective.

FPS, one of the genre you lambasted about is notorious for its 'pick up and play' appeal, it is this very nature that made FPS such a huge success to begin with.

In contrast, you have the games like Civlization which is complex, hard to pickup, 'dull', graphically bland and certainly not a popular mainstream game that all the 'hormonal teenager' are going gaga over. It appeals to a niche audience that like sophisticated micro-management in their games and those audience would certainly be offended if you ever went around telling them CIV is not really a mature game becomes its too complicated and does not have 'pick-up-and-play appeal'.

Space Invader is a very poor example to use to try and pick apart what constitute a mature game because it is one of the key precurser of the immature games that you dislike.

Retro mature.

Space invaders was a casual game according to Sean Malstrom so as Pac man to cater to young girls so whats this is all about? Sorry about it but there are similar games prior to space invaders its just that Space invaders was popular at that time till now so its the only game besides Pac man that is recognized.

About FPS, again, its a casual game, its so casual even with blood and gore teens are playing it because its easy to pick up and everyone can play it. FPS was different than in the prior incarnations of like Duke Nukem 3-d and Wolfenstein 3-d. Before, in the 90's, FPS are too violent in that time that UK banned Quake 2 because of it but now the blood and gore is the norm that no one cares about it.

P.S. Space invaders was actually popular because of the sounds not because of its graphics, I knew because I read it on online site before...

What exactly does Sean Malstrom have to do with this topic? I thought we were discussing whether one can determine if there is a such thing as mature games, not sales disruption. Also you're veering way off into discussing "casual" games which is not what this discussion is about. That's a whole other beast I do not believe in.

The issue here is not about casual or hardcore game.

bdbdbd picked a few criteria that he feels constitute a 'mature' game and use Space Invader as an example when it is pretty much the antithesis of everything he describe.

I acknowledge his general idea, which is that the industry has difted away from solid gameplay into visual shock as compensation for lack of innovation (at least that what I think he is saying). Although I disagree I can still respect his opinion.

Because casual games are the ones that attract kids and adults alike which means casual games are what we could say the Everyone rating games. Space invaders and Pac man was really a casual game so even young girls actually playing it, infact, most of the one playing these games the old arcade ones are mostly young girls.

About FPS, again, theyre really casual game so even teens not only adults could play it. COD 4 are played mostly by teens even with the rating it got the more reason why Mature games are always subjective.