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vlad321 said:
Timmah! said:
In the same way that a being living in a 2-dimensional world could not possibly explain a 3-dimensional being with their own science and understanding (nor could they prove or disprove the existence of a 3-dimensional being from their perspective), our understanding of our own physical, 3-dimensional world cannot explain, prove, or disprove the existence of God, a being that lives in a world of higher dimensions (outside time). We can make assumptions of the existence of God based on our limited understanding, but those assumptions are very subjective to our own opinions and interpretation of facts and the world around us.

Because of this, the only real, solid evidence that one can have of the existence of God is personal experiences, and a living relationship with Him- To those of you who don't have these personal experiences, it seems foolish to believe in something you can't see, because you haven't experienced him; to those of us who have experienced God's power, witnessed his intervention, and have a living relationship with him, it seems foolish to live without that. Arguments seldom convince nonbelievers of the existence of God.

The only way to convince others is for us as the Church of Jesus to begin to live in the love and power that Jesus demonstrated for us through His life, and use our lives as proof that God is alive and well. Until the Church is willing to step out of dead religion, and back into a living, powerful relationship with our creator, we have no power to convince people of the existence and love of God.

It soundss like you have been reading Flatland. Just because there may have been something that created the universe in another universe doesn't mean it's god. It also doesn't mean that Jesus was anything other than a normal human being with the ability to get people to follow him with blind faith. Also, I doubt that if anything from another dimension did spark our universe that they give a shit about us or are abel to control our world at all. Please point me to the 2D universe so we can go be their gods. Didn't think you could.

 

 

Like I said earlier, what other things would have caused the universe? An equivalent of a universe bread making machine. The fact of the matter is, we have no way of explaining how this universe came into being.

Edit: Apart from something out side this physical universe, perhaps a God of some form?



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Tispower1 said:
vlad321 said:
Timmah! said:
In the same way that a being living in a 2-dimensional world could not possibly explain a 3-dimensional being with their own science and understanding (nor could they prove or disprove the existence of a 3-dimensional being from their perspective), our understanding of our own physical, 3-dimensional world cannot explain, prove, or disprove the existence of God, a being that lives in a world of higher dimensions (outside time). We can make assumptions of the existence of God based on our limited understanding, but those assumptions are very subjective to our own opinions and interpretation of facts and the world around us.

Because of this, the only real, solid evidence that one can have of the existence of God is personal experiences, and a living relationship with Him- To those of you who don't have these personal experiences, it seems foolish to believe in something you can't see, because you haven't experienced him; to those of us who have experienced God's power, witnessed his intervention, and have a living relationship with him, it seems foolish to live without that. Arguments seldom convince nonbelievers of the existence of God.

The only way to convince others is for us as the Church of Jesus to begin to live in the love and power that Jesus demonstrated for us through His life, and use our lives as proof that God is alive and well. Until the Church is willing to step out of dead religion, and back into a living, powerful relationship with our creator, we have no power to convince people of the existence and love of God.

It soundss like you have been reading Flatland. Just because there may have been something that created the universe in another universe doesn't mean it's god. It also doesn't mean that Jesus was anything other than a normal human being with the ability to get people to follow him with blind faith. Also, I doubt that if anything from another dimension did spark our universe that they give a shit about us or are abel to control our world at all. Please point me to the 2D universe so we can go be their gods. Didn't think you could.

 

 

Like I said earlier, what other things would have caused the universe? An equivalent of a universe bread making machine. The fact of the matter is, we have no way of explaining how this universe came into being.

Edit: Apart from something out side this physical universe, perhaps a God of some form?

 

We have no way of explaining how god made this universe either, or even explaining that god exists. We have far more evidence and theories of the beginnning of the universe than anything pointing to god. Yeah it could be a god, but it's not the Christian god, Jesus was nothign more than a normal man, and like I said, there's a whole race of "gods" out there if we were created by something, also it was probably either as a scientific experiment or by an accident and they don't give a shit or don't affect us. Thus us believing in them or not is absolutely inconsequential since it won't make a difference in anything.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Timmah! said:

Our understanding of our own physical, 3-dimensional world cannot explain, prove, or disprove the existence of God, a being that lives in a world of higher dimensions (outside time).

Our 3 dimensional world?  Perhaps thats why we dont agree on things, you live in some weird 3 dimensional universe while me and everyone else is living in 'this' 4 dimensional universe (width, depth, height, time).  Unlike the people in your universe, the people in our universe have a grasp on higher dimension.  Just look into fifth dimensional mathematics.

I'd like to know what dimension you think God is living in.



ManusJustus said:

Timmah! said:

Our understanding of our own physical, 3-dimensional world cannot explain, prove, or disprove the existence of God, a being that lives in a world of higher dimensions (outside time).

Our 3 dimensional world?  Perhaps thats why we dont agree on things, you live in some weird 3 dimensional universe while me and everyone else is living in 'this' 4 dimensional universe (width, depth, height, time).  Unlike the people in your universe, the people in our universe have a grasp on higher dimension.  Just look into fifth dimensional mathematics.

I'd like to know what dimension you think God is living in.

 

Actually, there's much more than just 5th dimensional math. It goes up to n where n>=0. But the 0th dimension is just boring since it's a point so it's not mentioned often.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

appolose said:

I'm not saying that such a being does exist, I'm saying that if such a bieng existed he would be, by definition, outside of time, because time is physcial, and the being is not.  It's not an assumption.  If it's not physical then physcial attributes cannot be applied.  That being said, he (in the argument) exists apart from the universe, and there is no time to measure for him.

You cannot ascribe past and future to the function in such a manner, because that point is just a point on the graph, not a measurement of how far it's gone along the graph.  Also, there is a difference between having an infinite future and past.  For the future, you haven't gone on forever, whereas in the past, you have, which is impossible.

To make things short, you've created another realm where logic, physical laws, etc. of this realm do not apply to that realm.  One cant argue against that since you can apply whatever characteristics you want to that realm.  The real question is did the realm create you or did you create the realm (or someone told you about it), for me it is clear.

The equation showed that there can be an infinite past.  If you went back in time 50 billion years (before the Big Bang) you could still go on for infinity.  Here, you are making the assumption that the universe has a start.



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vlad321 said:
Tispower1 said:
vlad321 said:

It soundss like you have been reading Flatland. Just because there may have been something that created the universe in another universe doesn't mean it's god. It also doesn't mean that Jesus was anything other than a normal human being with the ability to get people to follow him with blind faith. Also, I doubt that if anything from another dimension did spark our universe that they give a shit about us or are abel to control our world at all. Please point me to the 2D universe so we can go be their gods. Didn't think you could.

 

 

Like I said earlier, what other things would have caused the universe? An equivalent of a universe bread making machine. The fact of the matter is, we have no way of explaining how this universe came into being.

Edit: Apart from something out side this physical universe, perhaps a God of some form?

 

We have no way of explaining how god made this universe either, or even explaining that god exists. We have far more evidence and theories of the beginnning of the universe than anything pointing to god. Yeah it could be a god, but it's not the Christian god, Jesus was nothign more than a normal man, and like I said, there's a whole race of "gods" out there if we were created by something, also it was probably either as a scientific experiment or by an accident and they don't give a shit or don't affect us. Thus us believing in them or not is absolutely inconsequential since it won't make a difference in anything.

Than why have people who have delved into that, discovered that's not the case? Seriously, there's more evidence for Jesus' ressurection than other historical 'facts'. And dodnt give me the Jesus survived the crucifixion, there were 600 hallucinations or similar rubbish that gets regurgitated over and over again. Romans knew how to kill, and mass hallucinations don't happen.

 



ManusJustus said:

Timmah! said:

Our understanding of our own physical, 3-dimensional world cannot explain, prove, or disprove the existence of God, a being that lives in a world of higher dimensions (outside time).

Our 3 dimensional world?  Perhaps thats why we dont agree on things, you live in some weird 3 dimensional universe while me and everyone else is living in 'this' 4 dimensional universe (width, depth, height, time).  Unlike the people in your universe, the people in our universe have a grasp on higher dimension.  Just look into fifth dimensional mathematics.

I'd like to know what dimension you think God is living in.

There are three diminsions that we have the ability to traverse in any direction at will, those are the SPATIAL dimensions I was referring to. Obviously, we live in time, but we don't have the ability to move through time in any direction we wish, so I did not include time as a dimension in my statement.

I can't say what dimension God is living in, because it is impossible for me to understand this dimension from my perspective. That would be like trying to imiagine a color I have never seen. The spectrum of colors visible to me extend through a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Other colors exist (if we could percieve infrared, ultraviolet, etc, our perception of color would be very different). In the same way I can't imagine or explain a color I've never seen, I can't really explain a dimension I've never experienced.

I would say that God lives in a timeless dimension that is not affected by entropy or the limits of physical matter. We see time as a person viewing a parade through a hole in the fence, God sees time as the camera crew in the Blimp above the parade. That's just an analogy from how I think it would be, I can't possibly describe what the particulars of this dimension, as I can only make definite statements from my own experiences.

My faith in God does not come from understanding or rationalizing Him, but from experiencing Him, and this is something you simply can't relate to (like I said, it's very difficult to imagine or understand anything outside of one's personal reality). I really hope that someday you encounter Him for yourself, because it really changes everything, but until that time, we pretty much have to agree to disagree.



Timmah! said:

I can't say what dimension God is living in, because it is impossible for me to understand this dimension from my perspective. That would be like trying to imiagine a color I have never seen. The spectrum of colors visible to me extend through a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Other colors exist (if we could percieve infrared, ultraviolet, etc, our perception of color would be very different). In the same way I can't imagine or explain a color I've never seen, I can't really explain a dimension I've never experienced.

We understand those colors that you dont see, they have wavelenghts and such that we can meaure.  Likewise, we can also understand other dimensions.



Tispower1 said:

Than why have people who have delved into that, discovered that's not the case? Seriously, there's more evidence for Jesus' ressurection than other historical 'facts'. And dodnt give me the Jesus survived the crucifixion, there were 600 hallucinations or similar rubbish that gets regurgitated over and over again. Romans knew how to kill, and mass hallucinations don't happen.

 

There is no historical evidence for Jesus' ressurection.  If there is please show it to me.

 



ManusJustus said:
Timmah! said:

I can't say what dimension God is living in, because it is impossible for me to understand this dimension from my perspective. That would be like trying to imiagine a color I have never seen. The spectrum of colors visible to me extend through a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Other colors exist (if we could percieve infrared, ultraviolet, etc, our perception of color would be very different). In the same way I can't imagine or explain a color I've never seen, I can't really explain a dimension I've never experienced.

We understand those colors that you dont see, they have wavelenghts and such that we can meaure.  Likewise, we can also understand other dimensions.

We can theorize other dimensions. Fully understanding and knowing what those dimensions are like is another story because we can't travel there or physically test them. I can understand the properties of those electromagnetic waves, But I can't have any idea of what those would look like if I could see them as color. In the same way, I can understand to some degree how God works by his word, and how he shows himself to me and works in my life, but I can't fully understand every aspect of God because that's beyond my abilities.

And thanks for cutting out 60% of what I said to only respont to that one part.