By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Russia Already Violating Truce

Mise said:
And some people wonder where Russia got its shady reputation. If I were in a position of power in Ukraine, Poland or any of the baltic countries, I'd start bulking up my army and joining NATO yesterday. And buying nukes, if at all possible.

That was a well planned play by comrade Putin and his yes-men, actually. First, dig in outside Georgia and start provoking it by supporting the rebel provinces, and disrupt Georgia itself until it moves. Second, overwhelm Georgia by sheer mass, annex the rebel provinces and force Georgia into an (lopsided) peace treaty. Finally, wipe your ass with the peace treaty, absorb Georgia, kill every Georgian still standing and laugh at the west as they shake with impotent rage.

The EU countries can't really do too much immediately, unless Africa or the US can provide them with an alternate sources of oil and natural gas. Even if they did, a large-scale mobilization would take at least a few weeks, and by then it'd be too late.

I don't know too many Russians personally, so I can't say anything about them as people. But I've personally never trusted Putin ever since he stepped into office, and pulling crap like this (alongside the lovely Checnyan picnic, his "controlled democracy" and "vanishing undesirables, part 39 070") is exactly why.

Russia might get expelled from the G8. That's about all i see happening though.

Maybe the EU would get full chair membership in that case.

Even that may not happen.

I think there is little coincidence that Poland and the US agreed on the missle shield today though.

Edit: Meant Poland



Around the Network
Kasz216 said:

Russia might get expelled from the G8. That's about all i see happening though.

Maybe the EU would get full chair membership in that case.

Even that may not happen.

I think there is little coincidence that Russia and the US agreed on the missle shield today though.

Heh. When the late USSR attacked Finland in -39, it got expelled from the League of Nations, AKA the Even more useless than the UN Inc.

The missile shield is a good thing, though. As much as this Georgia incident sucks, Nuclear Armageddon is somewhat worse.

 



Warning: The preceding message may or may not have included sarcasm, cynicism, irony, full stops, commas, slashes, words, letters, sentences, lines, quotes,  flaeed  gramar, cryptic metaphors or other means of annoying communication. Viewer discretion is/was strongly advised.

*from HRW website*

 

(Tbilisi, August 14, 2008) – Forces on both sides in the conflict between Georgia and Russia appear to have killed and injured civilians through indiscriminate attacks, respectively, on the towns of Gori and Tskhinvali, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch expressed its deep concern over the apparently indiscriminate nature of the attacks that have taken such a toll on civilians.

“Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian forces all have an obligation under international humanitarian law to protect civilians from attack,” said Holly Cartner, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “The latest information on civilian casualties in Gori, Tskhinvali and surrounding areas calls into question whether the forces are respecting that obligation.” 

Attack on Gori town square  
 
An attack on the main square in the Georgian town of Gori on August 12, 2008, killed and injured dozens of civilians, Human Rights Watch said today. The attack took place in the morning in front of the Gori Municipality Administration building, where several dozen civilians had gathered to collect food distributed by local officials. Victims of the attack described to Human Rights Watch how they saw numerous small explosions within seconds before they fell to the ground.  
 
According to victims, at least eight people died immediately, including a Dutch journalist. The injured were initially taken to the Gori hospital, but were evacuated to Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, due to the deteriorating security situation. On August 12, the Gudushauri National Medical Center of Tbilisi admitted 23 civilians from Gori, many of them injured in the morning’s attack.  
 
Although the Russian military initially denied that it was involved in military operations in Gori, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov confirmed on August 13 that Russian forces were active in the area. There were also several aerial bombardments of Gori from August 9 through 12 which could only have been carried out by Russian airplanes.  
 
Keti Javakhishvili, 25, told Human Rights Watch researchers in Tbilisi that she went with her neighbors to get bread and was injured in the attack: “I heard an explosion and dropped to the ground.” Javakhishvili suffered massive trauma to her liver, stomach, and intestines, as well as hemorrhagic shock, said Dr. Merab Kiladze, head of the medical center’s surgery department.  
 
Another victim, Nodar Mchedlishvili, 54, told Human Rights Watch that he went to the municipality building to get food to feed eight people displaced from South Ossetian villages. “In a couple of seconds from everywhere I heard what sounded like massive gunfire. We fell on the ground and some people never got up.” Mchedlishvili sustained shrapnel wounds to his left leg and knee. He was driven to Gori hospital in a car with six other victims as part of a convoy of the injured before being transferred to Tbilisi. Giorgi Malkhaziani, 59, whose right leg was shredded as a result of the attack, corroborated Mchedlishvili’s accounts of events.  
 
“The circumstances suggest that Russian forces either carried out the attack on Gori or at least should know of an attack by South Ossetian forces,” said Cartner. “Russia clearly has the duty to investigate this incident as a potential war crime and hold those responsible to account.”  
 
It is unclear whether there was a legitimate military target in the area. The Georgian military were reported to have withdrawn from Gori the previous night. Victims interviewed by Human Rights Watch indicated there was no military presence in the area. The multi-story municipality building is clearly visible, and as a civilian object is protected from targeting. 

Attacks in Tskhinvali  
 
When Human Rights Watch entered Tskhinvali on August 13, the city was largely deserted. Human Rights Watch researchers saw numerous apartment buildings and houses damaged by shelling. Some of them had been hit by rockets most likely fired from Grad launchers, weapons that should not be used in areas populated by civilians, as they cannot be directed at only military targets and are therefore inherently indiscriminate. Also, Human Rights Watch saw several buildings that bore traces of heavy ammunition as if fired from tanks at close range. There was some evidence of firing being directed into basements, locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter.  
 
Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including main battle tanks, Grad multiple-launch rockets, BMP infantry fighting vehicles and tube artillery, Human Rights Watch cannot definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent, but witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage described below.  
 
Human Rights Watch researchers interviewed about 30 individuals, including civilians who had remained in the city during the entire period of the fighting, a few civilians who had just returned to check on the state of their homes, and several members of South Ossetian forces.  
 
One man identified only as Giorgi took Human Rights Watch researchers to his apartment building at 50 Luzhkov Street, which he explained suffered severe damage during fighting that took place between Georgian and South Ossetian forces from August 7 to10. He told them:

     
    “They had no pity for civilians. When the fighting started, everyone who remained in the building rushed to the basement. We stayed there for the next two days, unable to step outside because the shelling was so heavy. On August 9, a BMP [infantry fighting vehicle] fired right into the basement, leaving a gaping hole in the wall. The noise was deafening and debris was flying all over the place. My neighbor’s elderly father-in-law was so scared that he started running away, slipped and broke his legs. No one was killed because everyone was in the adjacent room.”  

 
 
Human Rights Watch saw the hole in the wall, and learned that those in the basement survived only because they were in an adjacent room.  
 
Giorgi also showed Human Rights Watch a completely destroyed building nearby and explained that when the building was hit by a Grad rocket, six of the tenants, four women and two men, (all ethnic Azeris) were thrown from the window by the blast wave and fell to the ground. They suffered severe concussions and multiple bruises, but managed to crawl into the basement and hide there. They were hiding in the basement until August 10, with the neighbors taking care of them.  
 
Casualty numbers in Tskhinvali  
 
A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital.  
 
The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city.  
 
From August 8 to 11, the doctor said, staff had to move all the patients into the hospital basement because of the constant shelling. The doctor said the hospital was under fire for 18 hours. Human Rights Watch documented the damage caused to the hospital building by a rocket believed to have been fired from a Grad multiple rocket launcher which hit the hospital, severely damaging treatment rooms on the second and third floors.  
 
The doctor told Human Rights Watch that she could not leave the hospital because of the heavy shelling. She also said that two sisters, hospital employees, were killed on August 8 or 9, as they were hiding in the basement of their house.  
 
Selected accounts of the fighting  
 
Two women living on Luzhkov Street spoke to Human Rights Watch about their ordeal of spending more than two days in the basement of their apartment building, also damaged by shelling. One of them, a teacher at the local kindergarten, said: “They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth.”  
 
The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself. The children from the school had been evacuated earlier, and two members of the South Ossetian forces told Human Rights Watch that young volunteer militia had been hiding in the building.  
 
On the neighboring street, witnesses told Human Rights Watch that a woman, who was eight months pregnant, peeped out of the basement on the second day of the fighting, was hit by a stray bullet, and died from her wounds.  
 
Pavel, a man living at 20 Isak Kharevov Street, showed Human Rights Watch his building, which had been completely destroyed by the shelling. He said he spent three days in the basement, together with his wife. He said all the residents of the building were hiding in the basement without food or drinking water. The men took turns trying to fetch water under heavy artillery fire. Pavel told Human Rights Watch that when he went to get water, a shell hit the ground next to him.  
 
Burning and looting of Georgian villages  
 
On August 13, Russian forces seemed to be taking measures to prevent the looting of Georgian villages; the road south from the town of Java to Tskhinvali was closed to members of South Ossetian paramilitary groups. Russian officers at the checkpoint told Human Rights Watch that the road closure was due to the massive looting taking place in Georgian villages along the road.  
 
However, moving back from Tskhinvali to Java on the evening of August 13, Human Rights Watch researchers saw, for the second day running, houses that were ablaze in several Georgian villages. They had clearly just been torched. One counterintelligence officer of the South Ossetian forces claimed to Human Rights Watch that: “We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.”  
 
The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man: “The day before yesterday [August 11, 2008], the Georgians killed two of my soldiers in the village of Tamarasheni. We had been conducting a sweep operation there. We detained three of them. Two of them didn’t do anything to us so we just let them go – we couldn’t take them anywhere as I had to take care of my own men first. The third one seemed to be high on something – a normal person would have surrendered, and this one was shooting at us instead. We questioned him and then executed him.”  
 
He expressed concern about the ongoing pillaging: “There are looters everywhere in these villages. ... The looters are now moving to Gori (I went there this morning). The fighting there is over, and now the looters are looting there to profit from this war. Someone has to do something about it.”

 



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

I'd give it up bubbles. It's hard to argue with someone who doesn't think human rights are important about the horror of a country completely flying in the face of basic human rights.



I was just watching the News and apparently the Russian troops are not moving from Gori and said they have no orders to move from the city. They then showed about 10-20 media people and their camera crews being threatened by Russian troops at gun point and some of their cars have been taken. One Russian troop pulled out a pistol and placed it to the drivers chest and told him to give him the keys. They then showed a Georgian reporter grazed by a bullet during a live report.



Around the Network
Kasz216 said:
I'd give it up bubbles. It's hard to argue with someone who doesn't think human rights are important about the horror of a country completely flying in the face of basic human rights.

 

im just trying to keep everyone else up to date on stuff.   i thought the report was especially good because it goes against the russians rediculous claim that the georgians killed 2000 civilians.  and shows that the attacks werent as indiscriminate as they want people to believe.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

Venezuela blames US for Georgia-Russia conflict


CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is accusing the United States of masterminding the current conflict between Georgia and Russia.

A statement from Chavez's government alleges the conflict was "planned, prepared and ordered" by Washington in an "incitement of violence."

It gives no evidence to support those claims.

Venezuela is a close ally of Russia, which it says has acted to protect local residents from "unacceptable acts of violence" perpetrated by Georgian troops.

Venezuela's statement Thursday saluted steps toward peace in South Ossetia, saying Russia's stance has been in line with international accords.

President Bush has demanded that Russia respect Georgian sovereignty and territorial integrity.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

MrBubbles said:
Venezuela blames US for Georgia-Russia conflict


CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is accusing the United States of masterminding the current conflict between Georgia and Russia.

A statement from Chavez's government alleges the conflict was "planned, prepared and ordered" by Washington in an "incitement of violence."

It gives no evidence to support those claims.

Venezuela is a close ally of Russia, which it says has acted to protect local residents from "unacceptable acts of violence" perpetrated by Georgian troops.

Venezuela's statement Thursday saluted steps toward peace in South Ossetia, saying Russia's stance has been in line with international accords.

President Bush has demanded that Russia respect Georgian sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Speaking of people who need to be bombed...

 




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

MrBubbles said:
Venezuela blames US for Georgia-Russia conflict


CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is accusing the United States of masterminding the current conflict between Georgia and Russia.

A statement from Chavez's government alleges the conflict was "planned, prepared and ordered" by Washington in an "incitement of violence."

It gives no evidence to support those claims.

Venezuela is a close ally of Russia, which it says has acted to protect local residents from "unacceptable acts of violence" perpetrated by Georgian troops.

Venezuela's statement Thursday saluted steps toward peace in South Ossetia, saying Russia's stance has been in line with international accords.

President Bush has demanded that Russia respect Georgian sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Of course, it's the United States' fault that two countries on the other side of the world are fighting.

We get blamed if we act... and now we get blamed if we watch.

 



They just showed this video on CNN of these Turkish reporters driving in South ossetia last sunday taking gun fire from Russian troops. The camera was running and you could see the bullets flying through the windshield  and hitting the car as the men were ducking and putting the car in reverse to escape. But the 3-4 reporters were captured and taken into south Russia for interrogation before being let go. The video was really scary to say the least.