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Forums - General Discussion - Fate vs. Free Will

shams on 03 July 2007

freedquaker said:
@shams

Yeah, evolution is a wonderful bitch which does nothing but lies :) Im sure it makes a lot of sense to claim that brain, for example, a state of the art "genious" design, far more superior than any human could achieve so far, has been existing all alone accidentally!

Huh? You understand the principles of evolution right? It took us a long time, and a lot of work to get our "brains" to where it is today. If you think humans had brains this complex 10,000 (and more) years ago - you are very, sadly mistaken.

More importantly, its actually education which has got up to where we have. Language, communication, education, etc. You take 100 babies, raise them "in the wild" (no language, no exposure to it, no education) - you might be surprised how they turn out by the age of 20. 

Every single living thing all around you is a super hyper computer with magnificient design, and without some conscious design, it is just a no brainer not to believe in it. Atheists are just cowards or confused people, afraid to lose their "freedom" of earth lives :)

No you don't understand evolution, do you...

I (almost) take that comment about Athiests as an "insult". I will throw that right back at you - and consider you to be brain-washed, unable to properly reason and afraid of having any faith in YOURSELF.

The difference between us, is that I encourage people to believe in whatever they want (any God, or no God) - whereas you feel offended by my (logical) beliefs, and would do your best to change my views.

Its so pathethic to see that people do NOT believe that a human sculpture can be made by the nature, though the very same people do believe a trillion times more complex organism is assumed to be existed all by accident! Ridiculous!

Now I have lost you - absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Sorry... :( 


When someone says Evolution, he probably means "Macro Evolution", (Evolution of one species totally to another one) which is yet to be proven,

HAHAHA! Do you know anything about science? DNA? Carbon dating? Palaentology? (etc..)?????
You did learn this stuff at school, right?

which I doubt to ever happen, cos it does not have any rock solid scientific basis (while there are a vast array of contrasting evidences).

What, like the Bible? 

Microevolution (evolution within the same species), on the other hand is pretty much proven and experienced. Most people call it "Variation" to avoid confusion with the Macro evolution", which is the actual point of conflict. Most religions and schools of thought does not only accept Variation but obliges it. This is how Adam and Eve begot to various races ranging from black to white.

That's a load of crap, and I have never heard of such rubbish before. Sounds like something conveniently invented by the Church to explain how the "stories" present in the Bible led to moden society. I am quite deeply worried that you actually (seriously) believe that. Gosh...

So do you like... BELIEVE in Adam & Eve?? And that all humanity came from them???

That the DNA from two people can turn into billions of DNA combinations? Or do you not believe in DNA either? Or is this something that God "conveniently" triggered?

Please explain this to me, or provide "links" - I'd love to have a read how this is possible ;)

You do realise that biology will show that its IMPOSSIBLE for a pair of humans to produce a very large, varied population of humans?

 

Sorry everyone... looks like I got caught off topic :(

But I just couldn't let this stand. I just can't believe that anyone in the year 2007 can actually believe this.... (won't say it).

 

 



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That Guy on 03 July 2007

Dear posters,

GIVE ME BACK MY THREAD

Sincerely,

The Free Will vs. Fate Topic

Lets not belittle or speak to others in a condescending tone. We're all civil posters here. I understand that in the God argument, there's a fine line between God being involved in fate vs. free will, and talk about the existence of God himself, which is a seperate thread.

This thread is about expressing opinions, not about criticizing and cutting down the opinions of others. This goes for both God believers and Atheists. you know who you are!



vizunary on 03 July 2007

42



as good of an explanation, as any other I've ever heard.... We're getting religious here, but my point is, "YOU DON'T KNOW".....
I think(believe) that every path has already occured, we just happen to be on this one.
In another one the PS3 is selling best ;)
Who here knows(and understands) String Theory?



Galaki on 03 July 2007

my head hurts



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El Duderino on 03 July 2007

@ vizunary: I know a little bit about the string theory, you where speaking of the tenth dimension where all possible realitys are combined right ??? very interesting theory, will definitly give you a lasting headache

for all who are interested or just feel like boggling your mind, this video is the easiest way to put it IMO, but I still fealt very small and dumb after watching it.

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=4280922161474483340

it starts out with the 4 dimensions we live in and can sense, then some really freaky stuff gets added to that, very cool 



 

 

 

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Timmah! on 03 July 2007

@Shams

That's a load of crap, and I have never heard of such rubbish before. Sounds like something conveniently invented by the Church to explain how the "stories" present in the Bible led to moden society. I am quite deeply worried that you actually (seriously) believe that. Gosh...

So do you like... BELIEVE in Adam & Eve?? And that all humanity came from them???

That the DNA from two people can turn into billions of DNA combinations? Or do you not believe in DNA either? Or is this something that God "conveniently" triggered?

Please explain this to me, or provide "links" - I'd love to have a read how this is possible ;)

You do realise that biology will show that its IMPOSSIBLE for a pair of humans to produce a very large, varied population of humans?

Ok, so it is impossible for a pair of humans to produce a very large, varied population of humans (same species), but you believe a single-celled organism that came from a puddle of goo is the 'father' of the vastly varied, incredibly large population of all creatures from every species? Did you think that one through? Your point actually works against your belief in evolution.

I think I like my Adam better.

And please stop insinuating that people who believe differently than you are idiots. That method of debate is incredibly childish. Let your arguments stand on their own merits and leave badgering insults out of it.



Timmah! on 03 July 2007
Lingyis said:
Timmah! said:

One question I've been asked as a Christian (I'm not a big fan of the label, I feel it's been grossly mis-represented by 'religious' people) is- "The Bible says, you did not choose me, but I chose you. Doesn't that mean God condemned some people to Hell without giving them a choice since they weren't chosen?". The best explaination I've ever heard for this is: "To choose us, God looked into the future and saw that we would choose him, so he went back and chose us first by writing our names down in a book that was authored before we were born." It's something that cannot be fully understood by my limited mental capacity.

 


 if you can't understand it... than it's certainly not the best explanation you've ever heard.  how could you just take it for granted then?  

you're much better off saying you take it as a matter of faith--which is universally accepted to be okay as something to "take for granted".

 


Ok, I may have mis-stated what I meant. I'm not saying I can't understand it at all, I understand it in theory. My point is that a mind limited by time cannot fully grasp what it would mean to live in a timeless world. I do accept this on the basis of faith, because there's no way to difinitively prove it. That doesn't mean I can't use words to express what I believe. I wasn't stating this as proven fact, just an explaination of my belief.



Timmah! on 03 July 2007
That Guy said:
Dear posters,

GIVE ME BACK MY THREAD

Sincerely,

The Free Will vs. Fate Topic

Lets not belittle or speak to others in a condescending tone. We're all civil posters here. I understand that in the God argument, there's a fine line between God being involved in fate vs. free will, and talk about the existence of God himself, which is a seperate thread.

This thread is about expressing opinions, not about criticizing and cutting down the opinions of others. This goes for both God believers and Atheists. you know who you are!

Right on, That Guy. I didn't see your post before I posted my reply to Shams. I just had to reply to his off topic rant with my own point before coming back to the topic ;).

Great thread idea, by the way.



That Guy on 03 July 2007

ok back to more crazy stuff.

So if the universe was strictly newtonian (i.e. we can describe everything in terms of forces, velocities, and positions), then could theoretically create a computer to model all the movements of all the bits of *stuff* ( i say stuff because things like photons and crap don't have *mass* and thus cannot be matter or something like that) out there. Also assuming that our thinking process is nothing more than simply a matter of *stuff* going back and forth in our brains, then we could mathematically prove that fate is what exists.

Let me rephrase, if we track every single thing out there in the universe, then we could also predict where everything would be in the future, taking into consideration all we know about physics.


Problem:

The universe is not strictly newtonian and we have stuff like quanta to worry about. Quantum mechanics deals with randomness and probabilities. With everything explained using quanta, then everything really is just random, disproving fate (oddly, though, not *proving* free will)

Even weirder:

Providing that string theory will lead us to a Grand Unified Theory, we can explain everything in strings and map out everything in the universe again, and thus we come back to fate.

Crazy, huh?



Cursayer2 on 03 July 2007

Free Will. If it was my fate to never get a PS3, I'd go to the store and buy one.