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Forums - Sony - SONY FY END MAR 2009 – PROJECTIONS – PS3 STILL LOSING MONEY BUT DIVISION PROFITABLE

This is no sales analysis. Where are you getting these numbers from? You are clearly making them up I assume? Please provide links before you make such ludicrous claims.
BTW: This should be in a Sales forum not in a Sony forum. Figures like this just annoys PS3 fans. Sony forums are primarily for Sony gaming discussions or announcements relating to Sony gaming products.



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WHOOOO! i was rite!



I've never seen a site so dedicated to picking apart finances for the sake of a pissing contest.... unbelieveable.



Lightning08 said:
I've never seen a site so dedicated to picking apart finances for the sake of a pissing contest.... unbelieveable.

 

 in case u havent notised the site is called VGChartz which implies SALES! the whole PS3 suxxors vs 360 suxxors vs Wii suxxors comments got boring, if ure into that than you shouldnt be here? im i off base here?



Nidan said:
bumidan said:

PS3 Hardware

 

Sony stated that they will ship/sell 10 million consoles this fiscal year.  Last FY ending Mar 2008, they have already shipped 9.24 million consoles.  I am fairly optimistic that they will beat those numbers.

 

Therefore for my projections, I will use a figure of 11(*) million consoles.

 

From the previous threads, the loss per console for the PS3 for FY ending Mar 2008 was $210.50(*) .  This was a $270(*) per unit cost reduction from the previous FY.

 

With more cost reductions, I estimate that another $150(*) of cost reductions and efficiencies will be shaved off from the hardware.  I will be optimistic and use an average for the whole year of a NET LOSS of $60(*) per console. 

 

PS3 Hardware = 11(*) million x ($60)(*) loss = LOSS OF $660(*) million dollars

 

I find it hard to believe this estimate, Where are they getting this cost reduction from?

I could think of only 1 area which may impact slightly on the price "blue LED"

They would have so many cost increases this year. like


- cost of copper and steel "increased"

-Price of Transport "increased"

- price of labour "increased" although still a small cost in the products total cost.

real price reductions come from redesign, where they use one IC instead of many discrete parts. Thats a hell of a lot of squezing the suppliers to get 150 dollar price reduction after the previous one.

I would estimate $50-$75 price reduction only.

Please note that the cost reductions does not indicate ONLY component costs but all other costs involved as well. 

I agree with the factors that you have mentioned (eg. shipping cost increases, material costs, labor, etc.).

Also, the reason that the fixed costs can come down that much is partly due to the fact that the fixed cost portion will be allocated to many more units.

For example (if you looked at the previous thread before this), the PS3 HW from my analysis went from losing about $480(*) to $210(*) per console.  Of course the shipped units went from 5.5 million to 9.24 million.

But of course, your estimate is as good as mine.

 



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quaiky said:

some points why i don't think that you can really do a prediction just based on these few numbers.

to see what other factors exist over 1 year i look into last fy:

first half of last fy they were selling the old models which still cost them a lot more and were probably highly deficitable, then in autumn they introduced the newer models and a pricecut, with rumors of production cost beeing in 400$ range by that time. Selling at 400$ still doesn't make it profitable since a lot other costs have to be added on the pure production costs, but i expect loss should have been down to less than 100$ per console by that time.

But soon after the 100$ pricecut in october last year, dollar/yen exchange rates started dropping too and prices for sony actually dropped by another 9-10% for the holiday season, and another few % after holiday season. Which i guess had a quite a negative effect on sonys earnings since that also coresponds with the biggest selling period.

for this year things look a lot better: ps3 is still at about 400 euro in europe which is now an about 50% higher price than in the us, so its very likely that they are selling ps3 hardware for profits in europe, while they might still have a loss per sold ps3 in the us. Its expected that the new shrinked chips will be integrated later this year so production costs should definitely go down again, and if sony doesn't have to do a pricecut they might reach hardware profitability worldwide.
Also starting with this april it seems that the dollar is going up again a bit compared to the yen (or maybe yen is dropping a bit) so its at 106 yen for 1 dollar now (lowest was about 100 yen in march which also might have made sony losses of last fy look worse in dollars, than if you would have applied an yearly average exchange rate).

so all summarised your model is very simplified since you are just dividing lossed by the sold numbers and saying they are averagely loosing this much per unit. While the indicator loss per sold ps3 is an interesting thing for watching how the ps3 evolves over time, i don't think we have enough data with it to make a valid forecast how that number will evolve for next financial year.
we don't even know how losses per unit sold evolved over the span of last fy. As an example PS3 might have been highly negative for the first period of the fy with slowly decreasing losses over the next few months. then a big change when they introduced the 40/80gb models and from that point on slowly reaching profitabilty. Its allready possible that they might have allready reached a profit in ps3 hw close to the end of last fy or start of the new fy if you base it on this model, since very small profits would still not have much effect on the big overall loss last fy.
But without knowing details another model might also be valid which has nearly stagnant losses per unit sold for the times before the 40/80gb models (&pricecut) and after that another loss per unit number which is nearly stagnant too.
also based on only 2 estimates for the fy 07 and the fy06 it is nearly impossible to make a valid projection.
(and for those 2 numbers its still very hard to say how valid they are since we don't know what sony added all into these numbers. they even might have split hardware developement costs across a few financial years before and after release)

@quaiky, let me see if I can reply to your comments:

I understand that newer units may cost less than the older units.  The main point of the analysis is to show the average loss, in this case, per console for the PS3 - since it seems like the PS2 and PSP part of the analysis does not really elicit much comment.  Therefore, I think most people find the PS2 and PSP parts of the analysis to be quite reasonable.

Also, we can make projections on a quarter to quarter basis showing a declining loss per console over time.  It is possible, but just takes much more work.  However, at the end of the Fiscal Year, you can still show an average of all the quarters and grab a figure for easier understanding of the numbers, just like in the previous fiscal years.

All figures are in US$.  While exchange rates varies, if you are a US$(North American) investor, the numbers that are relevant for you will be your home currency.  So if the Yen exchange rate turns favorable or negative for the US$, you would still convert it to US$.

I hope that answers some of your questions about the methodology of the analysis.

 

 



NNN2004 said:
bumidan .. Why u hate sony that much ??

Who said I hate Sony?  Doing an analysis does not mean I hate Sony.  It just means I have devoted way too much time analyzing video game financials.  yikes...

 



FaRmLaNd said:
Does he do them for the other console companies? If not he should.

 

 Yes.  I have done 2 threads about Microsoft - please look at my previous forums.

I have done a more recent Sony one:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=32456&start=100

FYI, Sony numbers are "easier" to analyze and therefore I can get a more "complete" analysis compared to Microsoft.

Haven't done a Nintendo one.  However, where is the fun in that?  They make so much money and there really is no discussion/debate/argument there.

For MSFT and Sony, it's more entertaining.

Cheers.



Plaupius said:
Only a couple of comments:

1) I believe the PS2 hardware drop could be significantly more than 15%, the current levels are more like 30% less than a year ago.

2) If the PS3 numbers increase a lot, the net loss per unit will come down as well since the fixed costs will be divided between more units. So, if Sony shipped for instance 13 million PS3 instead of the projected 10 million, the net loss won't increase 30%.

Those are the two things off the top of my head. I believe it is safe to assume that the PS3 "price reductions" are effective, it is already clearly past the launch period so Sony won't spend as much on marketing and probably there are not as much R&D costs to amortize.

1. Reasonable assumption. 

2. Yes, which is why my loss per console for the PS3 was much less.

If you have another set of assumptions, let me know.  Just follow how I did my analysis.  I can even run them for you in my handy dandy spreadsheet and show you how your numbers turn out.

Geeky, eh? haha.  That's what a finance education and video game playing does to you.

 



Rock_on_2008 said:
This is no sales analysis. Where are you getting these numbers from? You are clearly making them up I assume? Please provide links before you make such ludicrous claims.
BTW: This should be in a Sales forum not in a Sony forum. Figures like this just annoys PS3 fans. Sony forums are primarily for Sony gaming discussions or announcements relating to Sony gaming products.

1. The numbers are from published Sony financial statements.  Numbers with a (*) are assumptions and estimates.

2. You can check out the previous thread and read it carefully as to how the numbers were obtained.  Like I mentioned in the beginning of the thread, this projection is a follow up of that thread.  Here is the link:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=32456&start=100

3. OK.  Next time I will post it in the Sales forums.