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Forums - Gaming - Xenon vs Cell Which one really is better ??

Mifely said:

 Um... link?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/28847/Sony-to-abandon-the-Cell , I guess its this one.



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Deneidez said:

@MikeB

The basic principles remain the same. It's not like if you have been doing one or the other your hands will be tied in terms of competence. Just use the Cell a little on a PS3 running Linux, you have absolutely nothing to be afraid of.

o.O , if I recall right. PS3 linux is running only on PPE(Correct my, if I am wrong.). The basic principles are nothing like same. Cores in PC can do everything with ease, you can split any work easily between them & so on. You really can't do that with CELL.

 

Very unlikely, a heterogeneous design provides significant benefits with regard to performance and efficiency. IMO by the time the PS4 launches the bulk of current PS3 developers will be fully accustomed.

Maybe in theory and as a hardware, but just think about development costs of programs...

 

And about those costs of components,

http://media.arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/ps3costs.png

 

@NNN2004

Well, I am a programmer, but I really don't have any practical knowledge about CELL.

(If anyone of you wish to give PS3 for studying purposes, I am willing to take one and make programs for it. ^^)

 

@Fishie

Every SPE have 256KB local store.

 

 Local store=cache?

Without memory you cant do anything so yah, 256kb is a realy low amount to work with when it has to contain all instructions for the SPE to fetch.



MikeB said:
Fishie said:
MikeB said:
@ NJ5

The biggest problems are his inaccurate statements about stuff he doesn't understand.


May I remind you how often you have repeated your genuinely bogus crap...

 

 You keep mentioning 8 SPE`s for instance when I have mentioned several times before and even articles you yourself link to talk about 6.

You talk about theoretical limits based on 8 SPE`s while there are only 6 and even then theoretical limits can NEVER be reached simply because they are not standalone processors, memory and data has to be fed and cheked from the PPC core etcetera.

 

Quote me then, I said the PS3 Cell has 8 active processors (1 PPE and 7 SPEs). I may sometimes refer to a research document which does tests with all 8 SPEs used, but then I clarify its relationship with the PS3's Cell. And the one SPE used by the OS is not useless or something, it's active and is used for OS related workload.

It's easier on the Cell to reach near its theoretical limits than it is for the Xenon for a varierty of reasons already discussed multiple times over. If you don't agree, take it up with an IBM technical specialist.

Retrasado already set you straight quote and all a few posts up.

 



Mifely said:
Fishie said:
MikeB said:

@ Deneidez

Btw, have you ever even programmed anything?


Yes.

Do you know what kind of projects games are today?


Yes.

Tell me what can you do with your programming knowledge with cell after ps3 leaves the market?


Be more efficient on other CPUs as well, extensive knowledge of multi-threading, better understanding of how the underlying hardware operates, etc. I strongly believe by extensively working with the Cell, it will do wonders for people's resume as a coder in the future.

However the Cell will see new versions and more products based on this technology, most likely including the PS4.

 

 Sony dropped CELL, you wont see CELL in the next Playstation.

How is that for showing confidence in a product you spearheaded and invested billions of dollars in?

 

 Um... link?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6182641.html

 



Retrasado said:
Fishie said:
dbot said:
@Fishie - Tell me more. Where did you find the specs for the PS4. I can't wait to see them.

 

 LOL, nice one.

Simple fact remains CELL was too costly for Sony and last year they dropped out of the project.

Their single remaining chip plant was sold of to Toshiba and they stepped out of further R&D for CELL. You WONT see CELL in the next Playstation just like you didnt see their last megalomaniac venture(Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer) in the PS3.?

Ok, so they pulled out of R&D for it. How does that mean they are not going to use it ever again? Just curious...

 

They pulled out of R&D, sold of their factories, anounced that they wont be using it in any of their products except for the PS3(when previously it was to power everything from cellphones to TV`s to fridges, be used as accelerators for PC`s etcetera) so yeah surely they must be putting it in the PS4 then.

 



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Deneidez said:
Mifely said:

 Um... link?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/28847/Sony-to-abandon-the-Cell , I guess its this one.

 

yup they sold it but not like it's a big deal. Now they can at least concentrate on what they are meant to be doing. Producing good software for the hyped ps3 that hopefully can make some extra good use of the cell.



goddog said:
@nnn2004 for your nvida/ati comparison, that depends heavily on software implimentation, on the mac side of things the gt 8800 is slower than the ati 2600. the ati 3870 destroys the 8800, being almost 50% faster at many tasks barefeats.com provides the testing.

@topic
basicaly for the cell to be more powerful than a tri-core powerpc processor, you need someone to program very well for each of the spes if that is not done, the tri-core will win out due to all three cores being able to due to same quality work on the same data, the spes can not do that, they need direction from the main core. the spe shine when someone takes the time to write out code that optimizes for it, the tri-core should not need the same level of optimization, really if you develop for ps3 first you would have to de-optimize it, the best example i have of this is on mac when the shift for powerpc to intel took place, photoshop cs1 was optimized for alvatec a speed boost powerpc tech, when moved to intel it was deactvated, and a special patch was issued to try and regain some speed... though it was still much slower on new intel chips than on three year older powerpc chips.

alvatec is a very similer idea to spe. though at most you saw two alvatec threads on any powerpc chip. if it is taken advatage of it can be very useful and give all kinds of really cool gains, but it is hard to program for and has only specific uses (or per spe in the case of cell). if not taken advantage of though the chip has no special qualites and depends on the power of the main core

 

@Fishie - I back my posts up with facts not made up shit.

Synergistic Processor Elements (SPEs)

Each Cell contains 8 SPE's(7 SPE'sfor PS3)

An SPE is a self contained vector processor which acts as an independent processor. They each contain 128 x 128 bit registers, there are also 4 (single precision) floating point units capable of 32 GigaFLOPS* and 4 Integer units capable of 32 GOPS (Billions of integer Operations per Second) at 4GHz. The SPEs also include a small 256 Kilobyte local store instead of a cache. According to IBM a single SPE (which is just 15 square millimetres and consumes less than 5 Watts at 4GHz) can perform as well as a top end (single core) desktop CPU given the right task.



*This is counting Multiply-Adds which count as 2 instructions, hence 4GHz x 4 x 2 = 32 GFLOPS(PS3 Cell runs at 3.2GHz)

32 X 8 SPE's = 256 GFLOPS
32 X 7 SPE's = 224 GFLOPS(PS3 Cell)


Like the PPE the SPEs are in-order processors and have no Out-Of-Order capabilities. This means that as with the PPE the compiler is very important. The SPEs do however have 128 registers and this gives plenty of room for the compiler to unroll loops and use other techniques which largely negate the need for OOO hardware.

http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell1_v2.html

 

 



Fishie said:

 Local store=cache?

Without memory you cant do anything so yah, 256kb is a realy low amount to work with when it has to contain all instructions for the SPE to fetch.

And 16Kb for instructions. (Registers)

SPEs also must fetch data from main mem to local store and work there. They can't work in main mem.



@ Fishie

Beyond3D staffer: "People don't seem to realize how much 256 KB is, in this age of 1/2 GB RAM - there's no context. 256 KB is as much as the original Amiga launched with; a computer that could do graphics, word-processing, music editing, ray-tracing etc. It's memory was limiting, mostly because you didn't have much room for data. There weren't any applications it couldn't do due to lack of room for code."

He's right, graphics and audio data was a concern as they are usually much larger than the executable code. The Cell's SPEs are however designed to stream process such data.

Everything had to fit in this memory of early model Amigas, the OS, the game engine, graphics, audio, etc. And loading things from double density 3.5 diskettes was slow (totally unlike the enormous bandwidth available within the Cell). But there are excellent examples that amazing things could be accomplished.

Just think about how many pages of optimised code you will have to write to fill 100 KB for just one SPE.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

guys iam busy now so i willback later to check the posts so ... take ur time posting.