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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How bad is MGS4 for the image of our hobby?

jman8 said:

 

How are themes of loyalty, genetic pre-disposition vs genetic pre-destination, and systems of societal control, the control of information, the military industrial complex and the war economy not deep, meaningful, and thought-provoking themes? Sure, they may not be presented in the most clear way, but they're definitely there. There's no denying that.

 

Sounds like high school psychology.



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TheBigFatJ said:
jman8 said:

 

How are themes of loyalty, genetic pre-disposition vs genetic pre-destination, and systems of societal control, the control of information, the military industrial complex and the war economy not deep, meaningful, and thought-provoking themes? Sure, they may not be presented in the most clear way, but they're definitely there. There's no denying that.

 

Sounds like high school psychology.

 

And that sounds like a junior high comment. Don't make me go elementary school on you, poopy-face! Oh snap! I just did!

But seriously, if that's high school level stuff, does that mean it has no merit? Does that mean it's not mature or meaningful? If not, what would be an "adult" theme? Or are you just trying to be confrontational and childish by not supporting your claims?



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@Fishie - Which one are you in the picture?



Thanks for the input, Jeff.

 

 

dbot said:
@Fishie - Which one are you in the picture?

The one who is not Kojima

jman8 said:
TheBigFatJ said:
jman8 said:

 

How are themes of loyalty, genetic pre-disposition vs genetic pre-destination, and systems of societal control, the control of information, the military industrial complex and the war economy not deep, meaningful, and thought-provoking themes? Sure, they may not be presented in the most clear way, but they're definitely there. There's no denying that.

 

Sounds like high school psychology.

 

And that sounds like a junior high comment. Don't make me go elementary school on you, poopy-face! Oh snap! I just did!

But seriously, if that's high school level stuff, does that mean it has no merit? Does that mean it's not mature or meaningful? If not, what would be an "adult" theme? Or are you just trying to be confrontational and childish by not supporting your claims?

I mean it literally.  I took high school psych and we covered those topics.  I also took a psychology course at my university and we covered more interesting topics.

I think the point is that Kojima is stroking his fanbase and allowing them to think they're reading a thought-provoking and deep.  But there is nothing new discussed there, just the same old topics from the most introductory psychology courses retreaded over and over. 

Personally, I don't find that interesting anymore because I had those discussions with my friends when I got into high school.



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HappySqurriel said:
jman8 said:
HappySqurriel said:

Honestly, the problem with Metal Gear is not the storyline or the game it is the moronic reaction and undeserved hype of Fanboys ... Metal Gear Solid's story is very similar in delivery to a movies like Wild Wild West or Van Helsing; poorly acted and directed over the top movies that are entertaining when you turn your brain off. It is (somewhat) better than these movies because there is an effort to add some deeper content into the story, but these messages are poorly integrated into the story and end up seeming clumsy. From what I have seen, the only people who really see Metal Gear as being particularly deep are people who tend to only see the surface messages in movies/books/videogames and miss the subtext of a story.

When someone who truly understands and enjoys deep subtext hears about how "Deep" Metal Gear Solid is, and then plays the game, they are bound to think that either games are the most shallow medium ever created (if this is the deepest game created) or that Metal Gear Fans ar morons.

 

How are themes of loyalty, genetic pre-disposition vs genetic pre-destination, and systems of societal control, the control of information, the military industrial complex and the war economy not deep, meaningful, and thought-provoking themes? Sure, they may not be presented in the most clear way, but they're definitely there. There's no denying that.

The question of depth or importance of the themes isn't what I was refering to, the integration of the themes with the storyline are ...

Most (good) story tellers tend to have there story investigate the themes in such a way that it is transparent to the reader/viewer/gamer; if a movie is exploring abortion (as an example) they tend to explore the life of a person who is considering an abortion rather than have a 20 Minute dialoge about the philosophical implications of an abortion.

 

I prefer the bolded. There is a reason we go to school and study through textbooks. The average human, ergo 95% of the population is simply not intelligent enough to find any profoundities in sub-textual messages. He may think, he may ponder, but there is a reason why most of us never end up winning the Noble prize or become world renowed in any particular field; We are simply not smart or "brilliant enough" our brains being mere grains next to the minds of those who have truly impacted and revolutionized this world with their inventive ideas.

Which is why I prefer to read works from people such as Kant or Neitzche and basing my opinions upon interpretations of people with far greater grasp on the subject matter. While Kojima is no Kant I do appreciate what he is doing and do consider his creative and intellectual merits to be above the average Joe's. In being so I endorse his storytelling method of spelling his idea's out in words simply because it may inspire some other truly genius people to do so themselves rather then assume the dumb sheep of a public will be able to see the brilliant profoundities of their sub-textual messages.

If the thematics of any piece of art is to inspire thought and change on a global scale it must be presented in a manner understandable to every, spelled out and it may possibly "stick" and cause social shift. Immanual Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is an example of such dogmatic yet profound literary piece that still is far too complex for the average person to even care to understand.



Fishie said:
dbot said:
@Fishie - Which one are you in the picture?

The one who is not Kojima

Lol

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DTG said:

 

I prefer the bolded. There is a reason we go to school and study through textbooks. The average human, ergo 95% of the population is simply not intelligent enough to find any profoundities in sub-textual messages. He may think, he may ponder, but there is a reason why most of us never end up winning the Noble prize or become world renowed in any particular field; We are simply not smart or "brilliant enough" our brains being mere grains next to the minds of those who have truly impacted and revolutionized this world with their inventive ideas.

Which is why I prefer to read works from people such as Kant or Neitzche and basing my opinions upon interpretations of people with far greater grasp on the subject matter. While Kojima is no Kant I do appreciate what he is doing and do consider his creative and intellectual merits to be above the average Joe's. In being so I endorse his storytelling method of spelling his idea's out in words simply because it may inspire some other truly genius people to do so themselves rather then assume the dumb sheep of a public will be able to see the brilliant profoundities of their sub-textual messages.

If the thematics of any piece of art is to inspire thought and change on a global scale it must be presented in a manner understandable to every, spelled out and it may possibly "stick" and cause social shift. Immanual Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is an example of such dogmatic yet profound literary piece that still is far too complex for the average person to even care to understand.

 

I'm sorry, I see the situation in the complete opposite way ...

Most people in the world do not care enough about most serious topics to actually be entertained enough by a discussion about them to get anything out of the discussion; in contrast a story that is well executed and provides an emotional reaction surrounding the story will have a much more noticeable impact.

Consider Gattaca as an example of a movie which deals with very complex topics which have very serious implications on the world we live in. The story covers Eugenics, destiny (or genetic pre-destination if you'd rather), and discrimination all without ever having a philosophical discussion about any of these topics; most people (regardless of education or intelligence) will come out after seeing Gattaca with some understanding of these topics.



What does it mean for the gaming industry when people won't accept that there is a place for people like Hideo Kojima in the gaming industry? I think that is a bigger problem...



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Yeah, right. It comparison to games like Halo 3, Gears of War 4, and all of the other xbox live games that are the actual games ruining this hobby, Metal Gear Solid 4 is the gaming equivalent of Led Zeppelin 4 or Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

 

"heavy handed cliche upon heavy handed cliche, retarded storylines that dont make any sense, overacting of the worst kind"

That line reveals your own idiocy more than anything else because in twenty years time the MGS saga will be discussed in college literature and cultural courses alongside Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, Alan Moore's The Watchmen, and Stephen King's The Dark Tower series. What have you done that will be taught in the same classes?

 

 

"Subtlety is a word not in Kojima`s dictionary it seems as MGS4 once again bombards us with heavy handed cliche upon heavy handed cliche, retarded storylines that dont make any sense, overacting of the worst kind etcetera."