By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - How bad is MGS4 for the image of our hobby?

DTG on 27 June 2008
bardicverse said:
DTG - Just a thought on the end of "children's fantasy tale" setting. Videogames were never thought of as toys for children, not until much later on, when Disney entered the market with its software in the SNES/ Genesis days. The fantasy fiction setting is the proper name you are looking to refer to, and actually tends to draw in the older crowds, the ones who know lines from Lord of the Rings like they do their home address. Most of the younger kids like games intended for them, and when they want to show off how cool they are, will play FPS games that their parents' probably shouldn't let them play. That crosses the border of your argument, into the violent gaming. The only negative side in our industry, in the public's eyes, is the violence in gaming. You won't see protestes about Final Fantasy or Zelda the way you do about Manhunt and GTA. Gaming is not considered, nor was considered "kiddie", a term ironically coined by Sony to try to put down the Nintendo systems and games. However, it is considered immature and "teen-like" due to the violent content, something that Sony helped to stoke the coals on.

 

I'd argue that video games were since their conception considered nothing more than a toy. If you look back at any video game ad from the 80's and early 90's period they were all directed toward pre adolescents. Games such as MK recieved criticisms and ultimately a no blood SNES release for it's adult content of blood and gore. You're right it would be more accurate to phrase it as immature or teen like, but video games were never considered as an entertainment form for anyone but kids and teens and Nintendo in particular played into that image with their policies and childish advertisements.

Video games are just starting to grow out of that image, but even today you'd be hard pressed to find a college professor or a highly educated intellectual well versed in gaming or one that even considers video games as a medium of any artistic or thoughtful value.



Around the Network
Garcian Smith on 27 June 2008
el_rika said:
Garcian Smith said:

 

DTG said:
No, Kojima's games are the saving grace of a hobby that has been consistently degraded as childish and senselessly violent.

Kojima's games actually deal with adult issues and the in game violence (which is only optional) is always done so with reason. Themes of identity, free will, manipulation, memes and many others paint a distinctively adult, mature and inellectual picture over an otherwise unsanitized industry ridden with senseless violence and childrens fantasy tale settings.

 

Um... no.

Maybe I played different Metal Gear Solid games than you, but all I took from them was a bunch of over-the-top in-jokes and fourth wall breaking. When I think of identity and free will, I think of Descartes - or, if you need a parallel in entertainment, Philip K. Dick or Frank Herbert - and not a video game about a super-spy fighting bisexual vampires and other villains with ridiculous powers.

In reality, video games have yet to see the medium's "Citizen Kane," or, the game that makes people take games seriously as an artistic medium. Planescape: Torment came close, but was ignored by everybody but reviewers, and we've only had a few good attempts since.

If anything, Kojima's games - or, more precisely, his fans - only serve to further the stereotype of the uncultured gamer who thinks that, well, games about super-spies fighting ridiculous villains are on the level of great literature or film. If you want something along those lines, go play a Chris Avellone game and call me back in the morning.

You have no ideea what you are talking about. You are the perefect example of the typical casual gamer incapable of comprehending the substance of the MGS games and especially MGS4. And in your ignorance you come here and brag about books and movies you probably only heard of, and if you actually read them you understood exactly zero but still it's cool to give them as examples or at least that's what you heard...

...but we both know the truth now don't we ? you haven't even played MGS4, hell, you don't even own a PS3, but just like any narrow minded fanboy you blindly jumped into the hater's wagon.

I pitty you, i really do.

 

How old are you?

And FYI, I have read everything that I mentioned.



"'Casual games' are something the 'Game Industry' invented to explain away the Wii success instead of actually listening or looking at what Nintendo did. There is no 'casual strategy' from Nintendo. 'Accessible strategy', yes, but ‘casual gamers’ is just the 'Game Industry''s polite way of saying what they feel: 'retarded gamers'."

 -Sean Malstrom

 

 

Gnizmo on 27 June 2008
DTG said:

 

I'd argue that video games were since their conception considered nothing more than a toy. If you look back at any video game ad from the 80's and early 90's period they were all directed toward pre adolescents. Games such as MK recieved criticisms and ultimately a no blood SNES release for it's adult content of blood and gore. You're right it would be more accurate to phrase it as immature or teen like, but video games were never considered as an entertainment form for anyone but kids and teens and Nintendo in particular played into that image with their policies and childish advertisements.

Video games are just starting to grow out of that image, but even today you'd be hard pressed to find a college professor or a highly educated intellectual well versed in gaming or one that even considers video games as a medium of any artistic or thoughtful value.

 Not as hard as you might imagine. Finding one that considers them on par with books or movies you will be hard pressed admittedly. Finding one that thinks it is a viable medium for expression though is rapidly becoming easier. Mostly it is viewed as only a couple notches above a comic book, but it is a start.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

DTG on 27 June 2008
Garcian Smith said:

 

DTG said:
No, Kojima's games are the saving grace of a hobby that has been consistently degraded as childish and senselessly violent.

Kojima's games actually deal with adult issues and the in game violence (which is only optional) is always done so with reason. Themes of identity, free will, manipulation, memes and many others paint a distinctively adult, mature and inellectual picture over an otherwise unsanitized industry ridden with senseless violence and childrens fantasy tale settings.

 

Um... no.

Maybe I played different Metal Gear Solid games than you, but all I took from them was a bunch of over-the-top in-jokes and fourth wall breaking. When I think of identity and free will, I think of Descartes - or, if you need a parallel in entertainment, Philip K. Dick or Frank Herbert - and not a video game about a super-spy fighting bisexual vampires and other villains with ridiculous powers.

In reality, video games have yet to see the medium's "Citizen Kane," or, the game that makes people take games seriously as an artistic medium. Planescape: Torment came close, but was ignored by everybody but reviewers, and we've only had a few good attempts since.

If anything, Kojima's games - or, more precisely, his fans - only serve to further the stereotype of the uncultured gamer who thinks that, well, games about super-spies fighting ridiculous villains are on the level of great literature or film. If you want something along those lines, go play a Chris Avellone game and call me back in the morning.

 

There's no point in me arguing you because we obviously have strong opposing opinions. However I am genuinely interested in what games you term as the "few good attempts" since Planescape? Judging by your SN, Killer7 is one of them a game which I also love. What other games would you mention?



Garcian Smith on 27 June 2008
DTG said:
Garcian Smith said:

 

DTG said:
No, Kojima's games are the saving grace of a hobby that has been consistently degraded as childish and senselessly violent.

Kojima's games actually deal with adult issues and the in game violence (which is only optional) is always done so with reason. Themes of identity, free will, manipulation, memes and many others paint a distinctively adult, mature and inellectual picture over an otherwise unsanitized industry ridden with senseless violence and childrens fantasy tale settings.

 

Um... no.

Maybe I played different Metal Gear Solid games than you, but all I took from them was a bunch of over-the-top in-jokes and fourth wall breaking. When I think of identity and free will, I think of Descartes - or, if you need a parallel in entertainment, Philip K. Dick or Frank Herbert - and not a video game about a super-spy fighting bisexual vampires and other villains with ridiculous powers.

In reality, video games have yet to see the medium's "Citizen Kane," or, the game that makes people take games seriously as an artistic medium. Planescape: Torment came close, but was ignored by everybody but reviewers, and we've only had a few good attempts since.

If anything, Kojima's games - or, more precisely, his fans - only serve to further the stereotype of the uncultured gamer who thinks that, well, games about super-spies fighting ridiculous villains are on the level of great literature or film. If you want something along those lines, go play a Chris Avellone game and call me back in the morning.

 

There's no point in me arguing you because we obviously have strong opposing opinions. However I am genuinely interested in what games you term as the "few good attempts" since Planescape? Judging by your SN, Killer7 is one of them a game which I also love. What other games would you mention?

 

Killer7 is one of them. I'd also consider KotOR 2, Silent Hill 2, and (arguably) Bioshock to be up there.



"'Casual games' are something the 'Game Industry' invented to explain away the Wii success instead of actually listening or looking at what Nintendo did. There is no 'casual strategy' from Nintendo. 'Accessible strategy', yes, but ‘casual gamers’ is just the 'Game Industry''s polite way of saying what they feel: 'retarded gamers'."

 -Sean Malstrom

 

 

Around the Network
DTG on 27 June 2008
Garcian Smith said:
DTG said:
Garcian Smith said:

 

DTG said:
No, Kojima's games are the saving grace of a hobby that has been consistently degraded as childish and senselessly violent.

Kojima's games actually deal with adult issues and the in game violence (which is only optional) is always done so with reason. Themes of identity, free will, manipulation, memes and many others paint a distinctively adult, mature and inellectual picture over an otherwise unsanitized industry ridden with senseless violence and childrens fantasy tale settings.

 

Um... no.

Maybe I played different Metal Gear Solid games than you, but all I took from them was a bunch of over-the-top in-jokes and fourth wall breaking. When I think of identity and free will, I think of Descartes - or, if you need a parallel in entertainment, Philip K. Dick or Frank Herbert - and not a video game about a super-spy fighting bisexual vampires and other villains with ridiculous powers.

In reality, video games have yet to see the medium's "Citizen Kane," or, the game that makes people take games seriously as an artistic medium. Planescape: Torment came close, but was ignored by everybody but reviewers, and we've only had a few good attempts since.

If anything, Kojima's games - or, more precisely, his fans - only serve to further the stereotype of the uncultured gamer who thinks that, well, games about super-spies fighting ridiculous villains are on the level of great literature or film. If you want something along those lines, go play a Chris Avellone game and call me back in the morning.

 

There's no point in me arguing you because we obviously have strong opposing opinions. However I am genuinely interested in what games you term as the "few good attempts" since Planescape? Judging by your SN, Killer7 is one of them a game which I also love. What other games would you mention?

 

Killer7 is one of them. I'd also consider KotOR 2, Silent Hill 2, and (arguably) Bioshock to be up there.

 

I never played Kotor2. What elevates it's storytelling above the original Kotor? Also, what do you think of Mass Effect as far as it's storytelling is concerned?



iron_megalith on 27 June 2008

Uh.. Seriously this thread lost me......



Garcian Smith on 27 June 2008

KotOR 2 ranks higher than the first KotOR in my book mostly because of the excellent characterization (Kreia, especially), the real moral choices posed to the player (often transcending the simple "I'm a goodie two-shoes"/"I shoot you and rob your corpse" dichotomy found in many other RPGs), and a superior all-around story (less, "holy crap Star Wars!" and more, "hey, let's explore some themes that exist in spite of the SW universe.") The only thing really wrong with it is the ending, but seeing as they conceived and designed the entire game in less than a year thanks to pressure from the publisher, the designers can hardly be faulted for that.

I haven't played Mass Effect yet, but it's high on my list.



"'Casual games' are something the 'Game Industry' invented to explain away the Wii success instead of actually listening or looking at what Nintendo did. There is no 'casual strategy' from Nintendo. 'Accessible strategy', yes, but ‘casual gamers’ is just the 'Game Industry''s polite way of saying what they feel: 'retarded gamers'."

 -Sean Malstrom

 

 

jman8 on 27 June 2008

How could MGS4 be bad for gaming? What game according to you wannabe videogame elitists is good for gaming? I pity the fool who apparently thinks 99.999999% of videogames don't have any merit. Why even play games?



My Top 5:

Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger

My 2 nex-gen systems: PS3 and Wii

Prediction Aug '08: We see the PSP2 released fall '09. Graphically, it's basically the same as the current system. UMD drive ditched and replaced by 4-8gb on board flash memory. Other upgrades: 2nd analog nub, touchscreen, blutooth, motion sensor. Design: Flip-style or slider. Size: Think Iphone. Cost: $199. Will be profitable on day 1.

GhaleonUnlimited on 27 June 2008

KotoR II's story runs out of gas at the end cos they had no cash.

MGS4 is a huuge fanjob. It's not even close to the other games in terms of story. I think it was made for casual MG fans/videogamers who aren't batshit about things like "continuity" and "retcons".